I loved the beautiful, malicious gleam that escapes the Count Uncle while talking about his wastrel nephews. The mind games being played at the end of the chapter were very entertaining. "Don't do anything stupid!" sounded perfect from the Count Uncle's lips. The phrase also had a dose of irony, to my ear at least. The count was well aware of his nephews' long history of doing stupid things.
I love this sentence: "He had made a resolution: An unworthy resolution, to be sure, but come now, you can't always control your desires." It's the "come now" - Manzoni's sardonic slight at Don Rodrigo's villainy. Have we appreciated enough how ironically funny this novel is?
The word 'giudizio' appears twice at the end of the chapter:
"che sarete sempre amici, finché l'uno non metta giudizio" and "E abbiamo giudizio,”.
At the start of the chapter Manzoni tells us that Don Rodrigo, scoundrel as he is, also has the right to justice: "Tant'è vero che, a giudicar per induzione, e senza la necessaria cognizione de' fatti, si fa alle volte gran torto anche ai birbanti".
The words 'giudicare and 'giudizio' are both playing with the concept of justice and fairness, its appearance and reality, its temporal and eternal significance, with a combination of irony and serious intent. Appearances, words and meanings can be slippery things to pin down.
so many little comic surprises in the first pages of this chapter -- e.g., "Most people assumed...it was a plot cooked up by that tyrant Don Rodrigo to destroy his poor rival. Which goe to show that, to judge someone by inference, without the necessary knowledge of the facts, can sometimes do a great wrong, even to a scoundrel." -- and the portrayel of his passion--"or that combination of obstinacy, rage, and capricious lust that constituted his passion" -- and his wavering, almost giving up, until his pride of reputation keeps him at it & begins to reveal how even our archvillain becomes a little cog in the greater machinery of comedy and folly.
I was surprised as the chapter went on to see Attilio become so cunning and clever, almost a greater villain than Don R., who somehow appears to have become younger and less powerful in these scenes. I have thought of him until now as am accomplished tyrant, in his evil prime, but here he seems an immature younger man, swaggering for nothing but impulse.
Your comments are great, and so inspiring! I have to do a series of readings and lectures in the coming months, and they’re shaping up to be Manzoni in America. The Italians u
are often given a very fossilized standard reading in school, and only begin to enjoy the novel as adults. You guys, by contrast, are poking around, asking important questions, recognizing Manzoni’s irony and how it opens everything up for interpretation. Bravi!
I also wondered if the lines Michael referred to, "The road to iniquity is wide but that does not mean it is easy .... though the road goes downhill, it is arduous and tiring" were meant to be ironic, almost as if jokingly implying a sense of compassion for Don Rodrigo who--"oh poor guy!"--has to try so hard to stay on that road!
I had a question about the way Agnese speaks to the friar. She seems so disrespectful to him, exclaiming in exasperation, "Oh, for heaven's sake ...!" Wouldn't her use of this term to a friar be sacrilegious and very offensive to him? And she goes on to add, "What do I care ...?" Again, this seems rude. And her comment, "Sorry to have troubled you," also seems insincere to me, in this context. and yet the friar doesn't react with any discomfort or displeasure.
Rough, tough Don Rodrigo’s insecurity is astonishing, afraid that his friends will think that he has suffered “defeat at the hands of a yokel and a friar!“. Like Rodrigo, his cousin Count Attilio is a villain and a bully, thinking of the hungry peasants in Milan as the “scum of the earth … taking up an attitude quite different from the proper one of bending over to be kicked.“ Their common uncle (who I believe goes unnamed, other than “Count Uncle”) knows these two ne’er-do-wells the best, referring to them as “a couple of reckless, young idiots“.
“Don’t do anything stupid” also better captures the insincerity in the Count Uncle’s warning. He clearly enjoys seeing his young relatives play out the recklessness he has to bury or disguise, then pretending to be exasperated when he has to “patch things up.”
"He was the master of ambiguous words, significant silences, things left half-said..." -- more signs of the malleability of the law and the decrees in this era (and ours). the reasonable man is forever being betrayed / manipulated by those who serve one master: a bully in charge.
I loved the beautiful, malicious gleam that escapes the Count Uncle while talking about his wastrel nephews. The mind games being played at the end of the chapter were very entertaining. "Don't do anything stupid!" sounded perfect from the Count Uncle's lips. The phrase also had a dose of irony, to my ear at least. The count was well aware of his nephews' long history of doing stupid things.
Love the Ru Paul reference. Also a great illustration of what a translator has to go through to find the right phrase.
I love this sentence: "He had made a resolution: An unworthy resolution, to be sure, but come now, you can't always control your desires." It's the "come now" - Manzoni's sardonic slight at Don Rodrigo's villainy. Have we appreciated enough how ironically funny this novel is?
The word 'giudizio' appears twice at the end of the chapter:
"che sarete sempre amici, finché l'uno non metta giudizio" and "E abbiamo giudizio,”.
At the start of the chapter Manzoni tells us that Don Rodrigo, scoundrel as he is, also has the right to justice: "Tant'è vero che, a giudicar per induzione, e senza la necessaria cognizione de' fatti, si fa alle volte gran torto anche ai birbanti".
The words 'giudicare and 'giudizio' are both playing with the concept of justice and fairness, its appearance and reality, its temporal and eternal significance, with a combination of irony and serious intent. Appearances, words and meanings can be slippery things to pin down.
More timeless comedy. These exchanges reminded me of Mel Brooks' historicals:
"Who knows?” replied the friar, shrugging his shoulders and retracting his shaven head into his hood.
“Come. Come. What could ever come between the two of you? You will be friends forever, until one of you wises up."
so many little comic surprises in the first pages of this chapter -- e.g., "Most people assumed...it was a plot cooked up by that tyrant Don Rodrigo to destroy his poor rival. Which goe to show that, to judge someone by inference, without the necessary knowledge of the facts, can sometimes do a great wrong, even to a scoundrel." -- and the portrayel of his passion--"or that combination of obstinacy, rage, and capricious lust that constituted his passion" -- and his wavering, almost giving up, until his pride of reputation keeps him at it & begins to reveal how even our archvillain becomes a little cog in the greater machinery of comedy and folly.
I was surprised as the chapter went on to see Attilio become so cunning and clever, almost a greater villain than Don R., who somehow appears to have become younger and less powerful in these scenes. I have thought of him until now as am accomplished tyrant, in his evil prime, but here he seems an immature younger man, swaggering for nothing but impulse.
Your comments are great, and so inspiring! I have to do a series of readings and lectures in the coming months, and they’re shaping up to be Manzoni in America. The Italians u
are often given a very fossilized standard reading in school, and only begin to enjoy the novel as adults. You guys, by contrast, are poking around, asking important questions, recognizing Manzoni’s irony and how it opens everything up for interpretation. Bravi!
I also wondered if the lines Michael referred to, "The road to iniquity is wide but that does not mean it is easy .... though the road goes downhill, it is arduous and tiring" were meant to be ironic, almost as if jokingly implying a sense of compassion for Don Rodrigo who--"oh poor guy!"--has to try so hard to stay on that road!
I had a question about the way Agnese speaks to the friar. She seems so disrespectful to him, exclaiming in exasperation, "Oh, for heaven's sake ...!" Wouldn't her use of this term to a friar be sacrilegious and very offensive to him? And she goes on to add, "What do I care ...?" Again, this seems rude. And her comment, "Sorry to have troubled you," also seems insincere to me, in this context. and yet the friar doesn't react with any discomfort or displeasure.
Rough, tough Don Rodrigo’s insecurity is astonishing, afraid that his friends will think that he has suffered “defeat at the hands of a yokel and a friar!“. Like Rodrigo, his cousin Count Attilio is a villain and a bully, thinking of the hungry peasants in Milan as the “scum of the earth … taking up an attitude quite different from the proper one of bending over to be kicked.“ Their common uncle (who I believe goes unnamed, other than “Count Uncle”) knows these two ne’er-do-wells the best, referring to them as “a couple of reckless, young idiots“.
“Don’t do anything stupid” also better captures the insincerity in the Count Uncle’s warning. He clearly enjoys seeing his young relatives play out the recklessness he has to bury or disguise, then pretending to be exasperated when he has to “patch things up.”
"He was the master of ambiguous words, significant silences, things left half-said..." -- more signs of the malleability of the law and the decrees in this era (and ours). the reasonable man is forever being betrayed / manipulated by those who serve one master: a bully in charge.