'You lament that I can't write in that attractive way. Well, I lament it myself—for your sake. I wish I had Milvain's peculiar talent, so that I could get reputation and money. But I haven't, and there's an end of it. It irritates a man to be perpetually told of his disadvantages.'
Edwin's mounting jealousy of Jasper with respect to Amy's admiration of the latter is excruciating to behold. But the poor fellow is so muddled.
Shouldn't writing in an "attractive way" be the objective regardless of whether it's literary, "commercial", popular, genre, non-fiction, essay, whatever writing?
Edwin's refusals of Jasper's efforts to help him get published and make more money is what my mother would call "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
Edwin's problem is a personality. He's a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. He is a shy person, probably a loner with a love of the classics and a mediocre writer. All of which is fine, but not for making money! Edwin needs an accounting job and a wife who is ok with a sedate life. Jasper, on the other hand, could sell ice to penguins. Jasper could be the guy who invented a pet rock! He is a mover and a shaker and can read the market. (It remains to be seen how much money he will make)
There are the private types like the Pynchons and Salingers of the world, but they wrote what the market wanted so they could get away with it. I do wonder if these authors started out being very private or did it come later to become part of their intrigue... more marketing! I don't know.
The Reardons’s marriage seems doomed by the recency effect - the most recent events are more at the fore. If only the Reardons could remember what brought them together. wouldn’t Amy, whose need to keep up appearances, and Edwin, whose need to write against outward popularity, know what would transpire? thinking of Flaubert, Kafka, and even Kay Ryan, who found muses, I’m also wondering where the sparks come from, and why for people, it’s the recent past. The search for origins can also be very seductive.
Jasper: “A clever fellow knows how to use the brains of other people.” I have found this to be true in so many aspects of life--aside from the obvious advantage of making work contacts.
Anyone else using Audible for this book? I only now - due to the reference to "triple decker" looked up how many pages the book is. Wow. I had no idea what I had gotten myself into. But, I'm loving it! I got the Audible version read by Nigel Patterson and he's excellent.
I listened to the book through scribd/Everand and loved the narrator of that version, too--Peter Joyce, a British Shakespearean actor who did hilarious impressions of each character. Makes me want to cast them for a movie version and thinking of who would play each character.
I'm not a writer, but I have made attempts over the years, and I can relate clearly to the difference between writing with a heavy and a light heart ("in a happier mood he could've written delightfully on such a subject...")
It's gut-wrenching to watch Edwin refuse Jasper's help, especially as Jasper is displaying his admiration for Edwin's work. Edwin is so convinced that his work is bad that it seems he doesn't want anybody in the world to read it. On top of that Jasper has come to embody Edwin’s shortcomings thanks to Amy's use of him as an example of what he could be. "How can you say that I am constantly comparing you?" Moi?
As to the comments that Edwin find another career in order to support his family, I can't disagree on practical terms, but it's clear that he would rather be Biffen than to be a successful accountant.
I totally agree. Edwin would rather be a Biffen than an accountant but Edwin has an "Amy" and Biffen wants an "Amy" but can't have that because of the life he has chosen. There is a price to pay. Edwin has to be willing to give up his wife and son and maybe he will.
“If the chance had come when I was publishing my best work, I dare say I shouldn’t have refused. But I certainly shall not present myself as the author of ‘Margaret Home,” and the rubbish I’m now writing.”
I fear Reardon’s pride is causing him to commit career suicide.
“The advertisements informed him that numbers of authors were abandoning that procrustean system...” It’s funny to think how married we are to form, how entrenched in our expectations. How strange to think of every novel being three volumes today.
Who are the contemporary writers who write for the market today? Is it all genre writers, romance and so forth?
Zadie Smith has recently published her first historical novel. (People would read her grocery lists, and no doubt justly so as I'm sure they'd be brilliant too)
Breaking mold is a good thing.
Unless it's not ..
Stephen King - writes for the market?
Are the very stark contrasts Gissing draws rhetorical in nature or factual account of reality?
Is there some kind of assumption that good books are written from some pure place of artistic motivation without any thought to publishing .. but that just can't be purely true
However I think that assumption/myth persists and I wonder what its effects are
I think some people just are driven to write. I am not one of them. I think it is Joyce Carol Oates who said she writes every day and has draws full of stories. I also think some writers have a natural gift for storytelling like S. King. It is such a personal expression. It takes some bravery to stick your neck out there. I fall in love with my favorite authors😍
I do believe (at this point) that my "feelings" regarding Reardon run a bit far afield from others - at least for the moment (perhaps my mood while reading).
I find myself irritated listening to Reardon’s continual self-centered whininess: “You lament that I can’t write in that attractive way. Well, I lament it myself – for your sake. I wish I had Milvain’s peculiar talent, so that I could get reputation and money. But I haven’t, and there’s an end of it. It irritates a man to be perpetually told of his disadvantages.” Why doesn’t he stop blaming Amy for his “disadvantages” and focus instead on how to live life in a meaningful manner? The “whoa-is-me-poor-writer-weep” is getting old.
Not only does Reardon blame Amy, but he descends to even deeper depths of despair, blaming “the (his) child”: “All the warmth of [Amy’s] nature was expended upon the child. / “He was beginning to dislike the child.” / But for the child, mere poverty … should never have sundered them … but for that new care, he would most likely never have fallen to this extremity of helplessness.” Uggh!
In chapter 9, Reardon bemoans, “It’s monstrous that an educated mother should have to be a nursemaid.” / “There it was. She grudged no trouble on behalf of the child. That was love; whereas – But then maternal love was a mere matter of course.” Hmmm, the “whereas” unveils Reardon’s sense of disappointment in not being unconditionally loved (ironically?) like a child: “Can’t you console yourself with the thought that I am not contemptible, though I may have been forced to do poor work? … Are you ashamed of me, of me myself? I want to feel sympathy for Reardon, as he “puts his cheek against [Amy’s] and pleads, “Do you still love me a little?” yet, his childish (dare I say, rather passive-aggressive) need to reconcile his own sense of ineptitude with Amy’s pragmatic nature: “We can’t live in solitude,” leaves me wont to “twist [my] fingers impatiently.”
And, here we are again, a few chapters later, Reardon bemoans the “aspect of [Amy’s] character to which he had been blind”: “[S]o far from helping him to support poverty, she would perhaps refuse to share it with him.” Sympathy wanes (for me).
My sympathy is waning too. I think it's his relentless pessimism and his refusal of Jasper's help. It's not enough to write the book. If he wants to support his family, he has to promote it. I understand he's not proud of it or himself, but I want to see him grit his teeth and use it to get himself and Amy into a better state, materially and emotionally.
Milvain seems more charming than Reardon but fiscally less responsible, sponging off his mother for a few years. But who would like better at a party? Who would you like more as a spouse?
I'm not a big fan of Jasper (though his reflections after his mother's death softened me a little), but I am wearying of Reardon's relentless pessimism. Jasper was a welcome change of energy in this chapter. If only Edwin would accept his help!
I’m on Team Jasper. He didn’t know his mother would die so soon when he took her money, hoping to secure a better future for the family. Now he’s taking responsibility for his sisters. I predict he’ll end up a hero.
I think we need a list of the figures here who deserve their own novels. I also want to read the one about the metaphysician who practices irresponsible journalism. (!)
Edwin's self consciousness about his book reminds me of his earlier self-consciousness about his clothes. He was only able to introduce himself to Amy because he was solvent and well dressed (and just back from Europe). Now he can't bear to show his face with a book he feels is tawdry.
This marriage is in trouble. "The stability of his love was a source of pain; condemning himself, he felt at the same time that he was wronged." And Amy "must shine with reflected light before an admiring assembly." I hope their relationship can mature. Reardon laments the passing of "lover's love," now that they have a child and have fallen on hard times. But lover's love is a passing thing regardless. I fear he's giving up on them as a couple at the same time as he's giving up on himself as a writer. He has a "superfluity of sensitiveness" but seems emotionally immature. And Amy will have to accept Edwin is never going to be the illustrious man of the world she seems to have imagined he could be. "Talk it over with your guide, philosopher, and friend," Jasper says to the couple in parting, but instead they converse with their own thoughts, bicker about Jasper, and agree only that Reardon must cease to write.
“So, without a word to Amy, he put aside his purely intellectual work and began once more the search for a ‘plot’”--the chapter in a single quote! The savagery of it all!
'You lament that I can't write in that attractive way. Well, I lament it myself—for your sake. I wish I had Milvain's peculiar talent, so that I could get reputation and money. But I haven't, and there's an end of it. It irritates a man to be perpetually told of his disadvantages.'
Edwin's mounting jealousy of Jasper with respect to Amy's admiration of the latter is excruciating to behold. But the poor fellow is so muddled.
Shouldn't writing in an "attractive way" be the objective regardless of whether it's literary, "commercial", popular, genre, non-fiction, essay, whatever writing?
Edwin's refusals of Jasper's efforts to help him get published and make more money is what my mother would call "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
Edwin's problem is a personality. He's a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. He is a shy person, probably a loner with a love of the classics and a mediocre writer. All of which is fine, but not for making money! Edwin needs an accounting job and a wife who is ok with a sedate life. Jasper, on the other hand, could sell ice to penguins. Jasper could be the guy who invented a pet rock! He is a mover and a shaker and can read the market. (It remains to be seen how much money he will make)
There are the private types like the Pynchons and Salingers of the world, but they wrote what the market wanted so they could get away with it. I do wonder if these authors started out being very private or did it come later to become part of their intrigue... more marketing! I don't know.
The Reardons’s marriage seems doomed by the recency effect - the most recent events are more at the fore. If only the Reardons could remember what brought them together. wouldn’t Amy, whose need to keep up appearances, and Edwin, whose need to write against outward popularity, know what would transpire? thinking of Flaubert, Kafka, and even Kay Ryan, who found muses, I’m also wondering where the sparks come from, and why for people, it’s the recent past. The search for origins can also be very seductive.
I’ve never heard of the recency effect! Love knowing this
I’m writing about obsolescence and the recency effect fits with the psychology of a throwaway culture.
Jasper: “A clever fellow knows how to use the brains of other people.” I have found this to be true in so many aspects of life--aside from the obvious advantage of making work contacts.
Here, here! That was a stand out quote for me too.
Anyone else using Audible for this book? I only now - due to the reference to "triple decker" looked up how many pages the book is. Wow. I had no idea what I had gotten myself into. But, I'm loving it! I got the Audible version read by Nigel Patterson and he's excellent.
I listened to the book through scribd/Everand and loved the narrator of that version, too--Peter Joyce, a British Shakespearean actor who did hilarious impressions of each character. Makes me want to cast them for a movie version and thinking of who would play each character.
Excellent! Glad to know!
I'm not a writer, but I have made attempts over the years, and I can relate clearly to the difference between writing with a heavy and a light heart ("in a happier mood he could've written delightfully on such a subject...")
It's gut-wrenching to watch Edwin refuse Jasper's help, especially as Jasper is displaying his admiration for Edwin's work. Edwin is so convinced that his work is bad that it seems he doesn't want anybody in the world to read it. On top of that Jasper has come to embody Edwin’s shortcomings thanks to Amy's use of him as an example of what he could be. "How can you say that I am constantly comparing you?" Moi?
As to the comments that Edwin find another career in order to support his family, I can't disagree on practical terms, but it's clear that he would rather be Biffen than to be a successful accountant.
I totally agree. Edwin would rather be a Biffen than an accountant but Edwin has an "Amy" and Biffen wants an "Amy" but can't have that because of the life he has chosen. There is a price to pay. Edwin has to be willing to give up his wife and son and maybe he will.
“If the chance had come when I was publishing my best work, I dare say I shouldn’t have refused. But I certainly shall not present myself as the author of ‘Margaret Home,” and the rubbish I’m now writing.”
I fear Reardon’s pride is causing him to commit career suicide.
“The advertisements informed him that numbers of authors were abandoning that procrustean system...” It’s funny to think how married we are to form, how entrenched in our expectations. How strange to think of every novel being three volumes today.
Who are the contemporary writers who write for the market today? Is it all genre writers, romance and so forth?
Zadie Smith has recently published her first historical novel. (People would read her grocery lists, and no doubt justly so as I'm sure they'd be brilliant too)
Breaking mold is a good thing.
Unless it's not ..
Stephen King - writes for the market?
Are the very stark contrasts Gissing draws rhetorical in nature or factual account of reality?
Is there some kind of assumption that good books are written from some pure place of artistic motivation without any thought to publishing .. but that just can't be purely true
However I think that assumption/myth persists and I wonder what its effects are
I think some people just are driven to write. I am not one of them. I think it is Joyce Carol Oates who said she writes every day and has draws full of stories. I also think some writers have a natural gift for storytelling like S. King. It is such a personal expression. It takes some bravery to stick your neck out there. I fall in love with my favorite authors😍
I do believe (at this point) that my "feelings" regarding Reardon run a bit far afield from others - at least for the moment (perhaps my mood while reading).
I find myself irritated listening to Reardon’s continual self-centered whininess: “You lament that I can’t write in that attractive way. Well, I lament it myself – for your sake. I wish I had Milvain’s peculiar talent, so that I could get reputation and money. But I haven’t, and there’s an end of it. It irritates a man to be perpetually told of his disadvantages.” Why doesn’t he stop blaming Amy for his “disadvantages” and focus instead on how to live life in a meaningful manner? The “whoa-is-me-poor-writer-weep” is getting old.
Not only does Reardon blame Amy, but he descends to even deeper depths of despair, blaming “the (his) child”: “All the warmth of [Amy’s] nature was expended upon the child. / “He was beginning to dislike the child.” / But for the child, mere poverty … should never have sundered them … but for that new care, he would most likely never have fallen to this extremity of helplessness.” Uggh!
In chapter 9, Reardon bemoans, “It’s monstrous that an educated mother should have to be a nursemaid.” / “There it was. She grudged no trouble on behalf of the child. That was love; whereas – But then maternal love was a mere matter of course.” Hmmm, the “whereas” unveils Reardon’s sense of disappointment in not being unconditionally loved (ironically?) like a child: “Can’t you console yourself with the thought that I am not contemptible, though I may have been forced to do poor work? … Are you ashamed of me, of me myself? I want to feel sympathy for Reardon, as he “puts his cheek against [Amy’s] and pleads, “Do you still love me a little?” yet, his childish (dare I say, rather passive-aggressive) need to reconcile his own sense of ineptitude with Amy’s pragmatic nature: “We can’t live in solitude,” leaves me wont to “twist [my] fingers impatiently.”
And, here we are again, a few chapters later, Reardon bemoans the “aspect of [Amy’s] character to which he had been blind”: “[S]o far from helping him to support poverty, she would perhaps refuse to share it with him.” Sympathy wanes (for me).
My sympathy is waning too. I think it's his relentless pessimism and his refusal of Jasper's help. It's not enough to write the book. If he wants to support his family, he has to promote it. I understand he's not proud of it or himself, but I want to see him grit his teeth and use it to get himself and Amy into a better state, materially and emotionally.
Milvain seems more charming than Reardon but fiscally less responsible, sponging off his mother for a few years. But who would like better at a party? Who would you like more as a spouse?
Milvain, the cheerful rascal!
I'm not a big fan of Jasper (though his reflections after his mother's death softened me a little), but I am wearying of Reardon's relentless pessimism. Jasper was a welcome change of energy in this chapter. If only Edwin would accept his help!
I’m on Team Jasper. He didn’t know his mother would die so soon when he took her money, hoping to secure a better future for the family. Now he’s taking responsibility for his sisters. I predict he’ll end up a hero.
I think we need a list of the figures here who deserve their own novels. I also want to read the one about the metaphysician who practices irresponsible journalism. (!)
Edwin's self consciousness about his book reminds me of his earlier self-consciousness about his clothes. He was only able to introduce himself to Amy because he was solvent and well dressed (and just back from Europe). Now he can't bear to show his face with a book he feels is tawdry.
This marriage is in trouble. "The stability of his love was a source of pain; condemning himself, he felt at the same time that he was wronged." And Amy "must shine with reflected light before an admiring assembly." I hope their relationship can mature. Reardon laments the passing of "lover's love," now that they have a child and have fallen on hard times. But lover's love is a passing thing regardless. I fear he's giving up on them as a couple at the same time as he's giving up on himself as a writer. He has a "superfluity of sensitiveness" but seems emotionally immature. And Amy will have to accept Edwin is never going to be the illustrious man of the world she seems to have imagined he could be. "Talk it over with your guide, philosopher, and friend," Jasper says to the couple in parting, but instead they converse with their own thoughts, bicker about Jasper, and agree only that Reardon must cease to write.
I agree with all the negative comments about Edwin. I can’t help but think, though, that some antidepressants would have helped him had they existed.
“So, without a word to Amy, he put aside his purely intellectual work and began once more the search for a ‘plot’”--the chapter in a single quote! The savagery of it all!