There are no saints or demons in this novel. Gissing's characters are fully rounded persons reacting mostly to the hideous specter of poverty. Milvain is right to fear its destructive power over his own values and disposition. The character who still comes closest to lacking redeeming virtue is Alfred Yule. Hard to blame Jasper not wanting to endure poverty to support that awful man. The fates have treated Marian most unjustly.
I was relieved to see how this chapter of Jasper's not-so-delicate handling of a "fatal” marriage ends. From Marian to Dora:
"To judge from your letters, you could make an excellent background of word-painting."
As Yiyun points out, the women seem to be the true, consistent writers in this novel. They care about style. They care about craft. They turn to each other for editing and advice as well as friendship. I wish we had excerpts of their writing. I'm curious, has anyone here read Gissings novel, "The Odd Women"?
So Jasper gets refused by Miss Rupert then lays the groundwork with Amy then goes and forces Marian's hand to move quickly knowing she can't so they can break up and he doesn't have to say I really don't love you. Marian had dodged a bullet here. The minute Jasper had to suffer a setback he'd be gone. Jasper will get what he wants out of life and Marian will be able to live guilt free but probably won't have material wealth. I love that Gissing doesn't pass judgement; he stands back and lets us squirm as we pass judgment on these folks. Morality is a social construct and I bet there will be as many opinions as there are readers on the morality of these decisions.
“He observed, too, with more disgust than usual, the signs in Marian’s attire of encroaching poverty—her unsatisfactory gloves, her mantle out of fashion. . . Whilst they spoke, the sky had grown dark with a heavy cloud, and now spots of rain begin to fall.” Gissing is a master at using these descriptions—of clothing to indicate class, of the weather for mood—throughout the book. Dialogue almost not necessary here.
Jasper of the facile break-up. The noble break-up. The 'I wish we didn't have to break up' break-up.
"Marian, if ever we are to be married, it must be now." Even though her gloves were unsatisfactory.
Marian didn't make it easy for him - "I can't go till you have spoken more plainly, Jasper!" and "... your voice says you promised it out of pity." "What can be simpler than the truth? You loved me, or thought you did, and now you love me no longer."
It seems clear to everyone now just how self-serving Jasper is - Amy certainly sees it - When Jasper says of Marian, "Think of that poor girl thus situated. And I could so easily put her at rest by renouncing all claim upon her." Amy responds with, "I surmise that-that you yourself would also be put at rest by such a decision?"
The profound effect of poverty on all of these characters plays out in a variety of its pernicious ways. Jasper tries to outwit poverty with careful planning and ruthless life decisions, but the effort takes a price in burned bridges and crushed hearts.
Just a note to say that a couple of days ago I finally caved and read to the end. I'm staying quiet so I don't give away any spoilers, but I'm reading all of your notes. Thanks to all of you for - as always - enhancing my reading. I so love having your company! See you all on Wednesday night.
I find myself struggling to view the relationships in NGS in the context of the times in which they occurred. The notion of a ‘love marriage’ is relatively recent and still by no means universal. It is made much harder by the asymmetry of the relationships in which love and beauty, absent money, play only a minor role in furthering a woman’s prospects.
From Wikipedia: “George Orwell admired him and in a 1943 Tribune article called him "perhaps the best novelist England has produced," believing his masterpieces were the "three novels, The Odd Women, Demos, and New Grub Street, and his book on Dickens. [The novels'] central theme can be stated in three words — 'not enough money'."[36]
Marian to Jasper: "You don't love me, Jasper, and that's an end of everything. I should be shamed if I married you."
Jasper to Amy (the evening before): "To tell the truth, I was wrong from the first."
Is Amy's coquetry not slightly offensive here, not to mention her allowance/encouragement of Jasper's calculated telling her of things that are none of her darned business?
Could she really look her cousin Marian in the eye after that?
We all know she could.
I also thought - a humane gesture would be to give Marian some of her ten thousand pounds, at least enough to make up her lost share of the inheritance.
But we are not in that kind of a world, alas.
Both Amy and Marian get some kind of truth out of Jasper, but Jasper's refusal to prioritize his love for Marian and his desire to have Amy as a further boost to his career is too much for the tiny ember of dying love to survive.
Jasper has never known a day of poverty in his life yet.
It strikes me that there has been relatively little about New Grub Street in this book. It has been more concerned with relationships and struggles between love and fear.
Dora is a very interesting character. "You cannot, I am sure you cannot, regard it as a misfortune that all is over between you." In her letter to Marian she doesn't take Marian's actual feelings into consideration. We don't know if Dora is in love with Whelpdale, or if she is only happy that she has her own chance at getting away from Jasper. But of all the romantic relationships, theirs does seem to be the one that holds the most hope of future happiness.
This chapter should be titled: “Wise Women of Grub Street”
Marian (dodges a bullet –with wisdom and grace): “There is no need to disparage yourself. What can be simpler than the truth? You loved me, or thought you did, and now you love me no longer. It is a thing that happens every day, either in man or woman, and all that honour demands is the courage to confess the truth.”
Dora: “I feel more disposed to congratulate you than to regret what has happened. / You will understand (though surely you need no fresh proof) how utterly unworthy he is of you. / Dearest Marian, do not cease to think of me as your friend because my brother has disgraced himself … I could not bear to lose you.”
Indeed, I can envision these two wise women “word painting” –and hopefully, finding some joy, beyond the needs of livelihood.
Gissing at his darkly sardonic best (disturbingly – I hesitate to admit – I smiled, and nodded to myself): ‘Oh, if I had imagined him still in distress, surely I might have done something to help him!’ –So often the regretful remark of one’s friends, when one has been permitted to perish.
i like that we don't dislike jasper enough, that is, until his dual play for ms rupert and marian. i do think that people are not as bad as we think they are in literature. and it's harder being angry at characters when you don't have to deal with him. there's a feeling that we're going to leave jasper behind and keep living our 'lives' in this novel.
Gissing created a brilliant and bitter scene. We get a little glimpse of what Jasper and Marian's life as a married couple might be like when he snaps at her to put up her umbrella and she exclaims in reply, "What do I care for a drop of rain...when all my life is at stake!" She lives life on a different plane than he does. He would also have hounded her to write, possibly to the exclusion of other activities. I just finished Ruth Franklin's biography of Shirley Jackson, and her husband Stanley "begrudged 'every minute' [Shirley's words] she did not spend writing fiction or articles, and once 'in a fury figured out that considered in terms of pure writing time my letters are worth forty dollars a page.'" That's Jasper all over.
Marian can't marry Jasper, but I doubt he would have married her no matter what happened in this interview. He would have taken (public) disgrace over that. A man can recover from such a disgrace. He has some sensitivity--for himself mostly--but no scruples. I understand everyone is trying to make it in a ruthless system, but I'm with Dora in her unvarnished opinion of her brother. Interestingly, Francine Prose, who wrote the introduction to the edition I'm reading, minces no words when it comes to Jasper either. She calls him "not merely a shallow, soulless opportunist but also a consummate narcissist." I was a little take aback by her judgment, but it was also something of a salve (as in I don't have to try and be fair to this guy). Later, she writes, "one of the book's most subtle and artfully orchestrated scenes is the one in which Jasper rather brilliantly maneuvers Marian into breaking off their engagement." I didn't necessarily think it was calculated, but either way, Jasper gets what he wants. He does suffer; it's an unpleasant scene. But it's nothing he won't get over soon enough.
There are no saints or demons in this novel. Gissing's characters are fully rounded persons reacting mostly to the hideous specter of poverty. Milvain is right to fear its destructive power over his own values and disposition. The character who still comes closest to lacking redeeming virtue is Alfred Yule. Hard to blame Jasper not wanting to endure poverty to support that awful man. The fates have treated Marian most unjustly.
I was relieved to see how this chapter of Jasper's not-so-delicate handling of a "fatal” marriage ends. From Marian to Dora:
"To judge from your letters, you could make an excellent background of word-painting."
As Yiyun points out, the women seem to be the true, consistent writers in this novel. They care about style. They care about craft. They turn to each other for editing and advice as well as friendship. I wish we had excerpts of their writing. I'm curious, has anyone here read Gissings novel, "The Odd Women"?
So Jasper gets refused by Miss Rupert then lays the groundwork with Amy then goes and forces Marian's hand to move quickly knowing she can't so they can break up and he doesn't have to say I really don't love you. Marian had dodged a bullet here. The minute Jasper had to suffer a setback he'd be gone. Jasper will get what he wants out of life and Marian will be able to live guilt free but probably won't have material wealth. I love that Gissing doesn't pass judgement; he stands back and lets us squirm as we pass judgment on these folks. Morality is a social construct and I bet there will be as many opinions as there are readers on the morality of these decisions.
“He observed, too, with more disgust than usual, the signs in Marian’s attire of encroaching poverty—her unsatisfactory gloves, her mantle out of fashion. . . Whilst they spoke, the sky had grown dark with a heavy cloud, and now spots of rain begin to fall.” Gissing is a master at using these descriptions—of clothing to indicate class, of the weather for mood—throughout the book. Dialogue almost not necessary here.
Jasper of the facile break-up. The noble break-up. The 'I wish we didn't have to break up' break-up.
"Marian, if ever we are to be married, it must be now." Even though her gloves were unsatisfactory.
Marian didn't make it easy for him - "I can't go till you have spoken more plainly, Jasper!" and "... your voice says you promised it out of pity." "What can be simpler than the truth? You loved me, or thought you did, and now you love me no longer."
It seems clear to everyone now just how self-serving Jasper is - Amy certainly sees it - When Jasper says of Marian, "Think of that poor girl thus situated. And I could so easily put her at rest by renouncing all claim upon her." Amy responds with, "I surmise that-that you yourself would also be put at rest by such a decision?"
The profound effect of poverty on all of these characters plays out in a variety of its pernicious ways. Jasper tries to outwit poverty with careful planning and ruthless life decisions, but the effort takes a price in burned bridges and crushed hearts.
Just a note to say that a couple of days ago I finally caved and read to the end. I'm staying quiet so I don't give away any spoilers, but I'm reading all of your notes. Thanks to all of you for - as always - enhancing my reading. I so love having your company! See you all on Wednesday night.
I find myself struggling to view the relationships in NGS in the context of the times in which they occurred. The notion of a ‘love marriage’ is relatively recent and still by no means universal. It is made much harder by the asymmetry of the relationships in which love and beauty, absent money, play only a minor role in furthering a woman’s prospects.
For now, I’m with Dora.
From Wikipedia: “George Orwell admired him and in a 1943 Tribune article called him "perhaps the best novelist England has produced," believing his masterpieces were the "three novels, The Odd Women, Demos, and New Grub Street, and his book on Dickens. [The novels'] central theme can be stated in three words — 'not enough money'."[36]
Marian to Jasper: "You don't love me, Jasper, and that's an end of everything. I should be shamed if I married you."
Jasper to Amy (the evening before): "To tell the truth, I was wrong from the first."
Is Amy's coquetry not slightly offensive here, not to mention her allowance/encouragement of Jasper's calculated telling her of things that are none of her darned business?
Could she really look her cousin Marian in the eye after that?
We all know she could.
I also thought - a humane gesture would be to give Marian some of her ten thousand pounds, at least enough to make up her lost share of the inheritance.
But we are not in that kind of a world, alas.
Both Amy and Marian get some kind of truth out of Jasper, but Jasper's refusal to prioritize his love for Marian and his desire to have Amy as a further boost to his career is too much for the tiny ember of dying love to survive.
Jasper has never known a day of poverty in his life yet.
It strikes me that there has been relatively little about New Grub Street in this book. It has been more concerned with relationships and struggles between love and fear.
Dora is a very interesting character. "You cannot, I am sure you cannot, regard it as a misfortune that all is over between you." In her letter to Marian she doesn't take Marian's actual feelings into consideration. We don't know if Dora is in love with Whelpdale, or if she is only happy that she has her own chance at getting away from Jasper. But of all the romantic relationships, theirs does seem to be the one that holds the most hope of future happiness.
This chapter should be titled: “Wise Women of Grub Street”
Marian (dodges a bullet –with wisdom and grace): “There is no need to disparage yourself. What can be simpler than the truth? You loved me, or thought you did, and now you love me no longer. It is a thing that happens every day, either in man or woman, and all that honour demands is the courage to confess the truth.”
Dora: “I feel more disposed to congratulate you than to regret what has happened. / You will understand (though surely you need no fresh proof) how utterly unworthy he is of you. / Dearest Marian, do not cease to think of me as your friend because my brother has disgraced himself … I could not bear to lose you.”
Indeed, I can envision these two wise women “word painting” –and hopefully, finding some joy, beyond the needs of livelihood.
Gissing at his darkly sardonic best (disturbingly – I hesitate to admit – I smiled, and nodded to myself): ‘Oh, if I had imagined him still in distress, surely I might have done something to help him!’ –So often the regretful remark of one’s friends, when one has been permitted to perish.
i like that we don't dislike jasper enough, that is, until his dual play for ms rupert and marian. i do think that people are not as bad as we think they are in literature. and it's harder being angry at characters when you don't have to deal with him. there's a feeling that we're going to leave jasper behind and keep living our 'lives' in this novel.
Gissing created a brilliant and bitter scene. We get a little glimpse of what Jasper and Marian's life as a married couple might be like when he snaps at her to put up her umbrella and she exclaims in reply, "What do I care for a drop of rain...when all my life is at stake!" She lives life on a different plane than he does. He would also have hounded her to write, possibly to the exclusion of other activities. I just finished Ruth Franklin's biography of Shirley Jackson, and her husband Stanley "begrudged 'every minute' [Shirley's words] she did not spend writing fiction or articles, and once 'in a fury figured out that considered in terms of pure writing time my letters are worth forty dollars a page.'" That's Jasper all over.
Marian can't marry Jasper, but I doubt he would have married her no matter what happened in this interview. He would have taken (public) disgrace over that. A man can recover from such a disgrace. He has some sensitivity--for himself mostly--but no scruples. I understand everyone is trying to make it in a ruthless system, but I'm with Dora in her unvarnished opinion of her brother. Interestingly, Francine Prose, who wrote the introduction to the edition I'm reading, minces no words when it comes to Jasper either. She calls him "not merely a shallow, soulless opportunist but also a consummate narcissist." I was a little take aback by her judgment, but it was also something of a salve (as in I don't have to try and be fair to this guy). Later, she writes, "one of the book's most subtle and artfully orchestrated scenes is the one in which Jasper rather brilliantly maneuvers Marian into breaking off their engagement." I didn't necessarily think it was calculated, but either way, Jasper gets what he wants. He does suffer; it's an unpleasant scene. But it's nothing he won't get over soon enough.