Although Mrs. Yule has lost the help of a servant, "the disaster to the family was distinctly a gain," for Albert "no longer visited her with the fury or contemptuous impatience of former days."
I was surprised at Jasper's assessment of Whelpdale (vis-à-vis Dora) in regards to class - "But what business has he to write at all? It's confounded impertinence, now I come to think of it. I shall give him a hint to remember his position." Apparently no matter how much money Whelpdale makes, Jasper will consider him nouveau riche and unfit for Dora. I was also surprised by Whelpdale's "I'm not a big gun, like you!"
Maud talks "with laughing scorn of the days when she inhabited Grub Street," and is content to shine where the worlds of fashionable literature and fashionable ignorance meet. Apparently she is adding a touch of refinement to her community of dubious wealth.
OK, so Jasper's machiavellian move reflects poorly in light of his most recent conversation with Marian, but his eyes are on his future and his future is at war with his heart. I am nonetheless impressed at his difficulty in lying to Dora. I do wonder if news of his proposal to Miss Rupert will get back to Marian.
We are getting to see the winners and losers now - I know that life isn't fair, but if it were, Marian should be the big winner. Gissing is opining with each reveal.
Jasper is so out of there. “ . . .she slipped her hand softly within his arm; but Jasper did not put the arm into position to support hers, and her hand fell again, dropped suddenly.” By adding Marian’s other responsibilities, Gissing makes Jasper’s decision even easier than if Marian was left with, say, $2k and no sick father. But Jasper would be gone anyway. Sticking with penniless Marian would be the decision in a lovely book (think Trollope’s Dr. Thorne) but NGS has taken a different path.
And how do they come up with those numbers, does some AI program figure it out for them .. we can't eyeball digital reads the way we can physical ones ..
Yiyun and Mark are far more forgiving than I in terms of recognizing the "humane" in Jasper's "struggle" not to yield fully to "moments of desperate temptation" and/or grappling with the difficulty of lying to his sister. Anyone who sets up a conversation about deceit by proclaiming, "I didn't lie in the ordinary sense" leaves little room for empathy --or respect (to me). Jasper is ultimately a weak man: “I sacrifice my strongest feelings –in one case to a sense of duty, in the other to worldly advantage.” Boo-hoo. World’s smallest violin plays on. Seems to me – Jasper’s mantra is “duty to worldly advantage.” Sacrifice? Bah, humbug (in the spirit of the season)!
I was surprised by Jasper's off-stage ask for Miss Rupert's hand. Jasper's priorities are clear. He is “practical” more than honorable. However, doesn't his asking Miss Rupert also mean he was doing kind things for Biffen and Reardon out of good will rather than in hopes of getting Amy?
For me, one of the funniest lines in today's chapter was Jasper's observation of Whelpdale:
“The reverence that fellow has for me is astonishing,” [Jasper] observed with a laugh. “The queer thing is, it increases the better he knows me.”
Jasper lives more as a realist than "the Realist" Biffen.
Good point with respect to Jasper's "doing kind things for Biffen and Reardon." I was touched by these kind acts, the sincerity of care. Perhaps, this is why I felt so disappointed by the overt expression of his ultimate priorities in this chapter. I so wanted to believe that kindness and love would wend their way to the top of his priority list.
Jasper's observation of Whelpdale made me chuckle too!
Jasper did mention say "But there's much magnanimity in my character, as I have often told you. It delights me to be generous whenever I can afford it.' In other words, don't look for any sacrifice on his part. I agree with Darryl that Jasper is behaving like an ass. His comments about his "sense of duty vs. worldly advantage" doesn't consider the impact on who is on the other end of this... the two women involved. It's all about him! Jasper's biggest fan is himself. The world is full of people who will hurt others and somehow find a justification for it. They get to live guilt free just through their own powers of delusion. I can't see Jasper being a good "partner".
Jasper tells Dora that the fault of the Reardons' break up was all on Reardon's side - we remember that he was told that he played a part in that relationship that his friend Reardon did not appreciate - we may not yet know what Jasper is up to exactly, except that Jasper is a man who likes to keep all his options open -
Maybe Milvain's redeeming virtue is his commitment to writing, while apparently he has a skillset that would enable him to succeed in a more remunerative profession. He knows he's no genius at writing, has said so repeatedly, and he's realistic that absent subsidy from a spouse his chosen precession will mean a vow of poverty. Yet he remains committed to writing, even though it means he may have to sacrifice love. "Whether I marry Marian or Miss Rupert, I sacrifice my strongest feelings—in the one case to a sense of duty, in the other to worldly advantage.”
Is it any different today? It still takes grit to seek a career just as a writer absent inheritance or a spouse with means.
I have a slightly different take - that what you say is part of Jasper's inherent cowardice - he is afraid to take a leap and become a serious writer of fiction, with all that may mean - as he is afraid to commit to a relationship based on anything but material comfort - as if wealth were not as mutable as love - though the book has offered us more than glimpses of just that. Marian's inheritance, for example. He has turned his love for Marian -which I don't doubt is real in some sense - into a sense of duty i.e. it would not be fair of him to marry her without money - we know that all these justifications and excuses are only to protect himself, not Marian. Jasper's fears are masked by his ambition to be great in a world that has no consequence or meaning outside of cashing in on some unsavory enterprise or other.
Yes! Jasper's inherent cowardice is reflected in myriad manifestations of his public-facing self: "Jasper went through his duties with the suave seriousness of a man who has convinced himself that he cannot afford to despise anything that the world sanctions.”
In that passage Gissing writes of Maud's wedding-breakfast "and other such absurdities of usage as recommend themselves to Society." What's wrong with a wedding-breakfast? Seems like a harmless enough tradition. I know that Maud's marriage seems to be one based on mutual advantage, but surely not everything that Society does need be absurd? Is he a throw the baby out with the bath water type?
Really interesting take on Jasper. There is some subtlety insecurity to his character that shows in earlier chapters. This is a nice theory that incorporates them.
Would Jasper regard his commitment to writing as a virtue? A vocation? He doesn't romanticize or idealize it. He does take pleasure in his own voice, and he is a sharp observer of his world as well as himself in it. In chapter one, Gissing describes his face "as of bureaucratic type." Hmm. What were his options? I do think he likes language, as well as exercising his fine wit. And he wants to arouse curiosity among those he meets. He sees himself as a creative and original person. But writing doesn't seem like a vocation for him; it's his chosen profession, and he approaches it professionally, at least at this point. I don't know what he'd do instead, but his investment in it may mean it's his best option for making a living.
My advice: Marian needs to dump Jasper to restore her sense of dignity. She also can start looking for another guy since her parents have failed that duty. Biffen? Nora needs to tell Jasper where to go and to get together with Whelpdale. Not too sure about Amy and Jasper though it would be satisfying if she dumped him in advance of his overt pursuit, leaving him 0 for 3.
Jasper: “...there was a woman who is far more to me than Miss Rupert, and all her money—a woman I might perhaps marry. Don’t ask questions I shall not answer them.” I assume he’s referring to Amy. It’s not over yet.
I think it's Amy too. I went back and forth. The fact that he says "Miss Rupert, and all her money" (dismissing the money) made me think perhaps it's Marian after all. But when he says, "Don't ask questions; I shall not answer them" I do think he's talking about Amy, whom he is not going to identify to Dora. Ah, Jasper. So faithless to poor Marian. But then why does he commit to marrying Marian at once? To appease Dora? She is his conscience.
I'm curious about the distinction Yiyun makes today between persons and characters. As far as Milvain goes, this chapter shows him at his absolute worst so far. Without breaking things off honestly with Marian, he has proposed to someone else - while he hints that there is yet another person - clearly Amy - in whom he is even more interested!
Dora's scorn of him is satisfying, if ineffectual. He's got a rationalization for everything.
Even without knowing about Miss Rupert, I don't know how Marian can stand to be in the same room with him or lay eyes on him. But she is not the hysterical hot-headed type, only the long-suffering, self-sacrificing type. With the curly head of a lamb .. hmmm.
But what is the distinction, is it a pertinent one, between characters and people? Are we splitting the difference somehow when we read novels? I wonder how it works?
“It is not merit that succeeds in my line; it is merit plus opportunity. Marrying now, I cut myself off from opportunity, that’s all.’” More words to live by from our man Jasper
so rare in literature to read about how much people make and their hopes to make more. i can only think of American Psycho and talk of inheritances in Tender is the Night. in my own life, my one-person parlor game at parties is trying to guess how much people make.
In Jane Austen, we knew precisely how much people “had.” I think Mr. Darcy had £10k/yr. And I’ve been reading so much Victorian lit that I’m used to it. This week, listening to Trollope, I heard about how much the women had in their fortunes (£10,000 and £2,000) and how much the men wanted to borrow (£2,000 and £200). It appears to be one of the few areas of discussion in which Americans are/were more reserved. In today’s world, talking money is off limits in the US, except talking about house prices. I don’t know about the UK. So enjoy your guessing game.
Good point about why Marian does not exercise more agency. But let’s hope she does something positive in the last few chapters!
Although Mrs. Yule has lost the help of a servant, "the disaster to the family was distinctly a gain," for Albert "no longer visited her with the fury or contemptuous impatience of former days."
I was surprised at Jasper's assessment of Whelpdale (vis-à-vis Dora) in regards to class - "But what business has he to write at all? It's confounded impertinence, now I come to think of it. I shall give him a hint to remember his position." Apparently no matter how much money Whelpdale makes, Jasper will consider him nouveau riche and unfit for Dora. I was also surprised by Whelpdale's "I'm not a big gun, like you!"
Maud talks "with laughing scorn of the days when she inhabited Grub Street," and is content to shine where the worlds of fashionable literature and fashionable ignorance meet. Apparently she is adding a touch of refinement to her community of dubious wealth.
OK, so Jasper's machiavellian move reflects poorly in light of his most recent conversation with Marian, but his eyes are on his future and his future is at war with his heart. I am nonetheless impressed at his difficulty in lying to Dora. I do wonder if news of his proposal to Miss Rupert will get back to Marian.
We are getting to see the winners and losers now - I know that life isn't fair, but if it were, Marian should be the big winner. Gissing is opining with each reveal.
"where the worlds of fashionable literature and fashionable ignorance meet" - Beautifully said!
Yes, Marian should be the winner - which makes me very nervous and sad ...
Jasper is so out of there. “ . . .she slipped her hand softly within his arm; but Jasper did not put the arm into position to support hers, and her hand fell again, dropped suddenly.” By adding Marian’s other responsibilities, Gissing makes Jasper’s decision even easier than if Marian was left with, say, $2k and no sick father. But Jasper would be gone anyway. Sticking with penniless Marian would be the decision in a lovely book (think Trollope’s Dr. Thorne) but NGS has taken a different path.
Pertaining to our conversation about Chit Chat, the New York Times now estimates the numbers of reading minutes for each on-line article.
And how do they come up with those numbers, does some AI program figure it out for them .. we can't eyeball digital reads the way we can physical ones ..
Yiyun and Mark are far more forgiving than I in terms of recognizing the "humane" in Jasper's "struggle" not to yield fully to "moments of desperate temptation" and/or grappling with the difficulty of lying to his sister. Anyone who sets up a conversation about deceit by proclaiming, "I didn't lie in the ordinary sense" leaves little room for empathy --or respect (to me). Jasper is ultimately a weak man: “I sacrifice my strongest feelings –in one case to a sense of duty, in the other to worldly advantage.” Boo-hoo. World’s smallest violin plays on. Seems to me – Jasper’s mantra is “duty to worldly advantage.” Sacrifice? Bah, humbug (in the spirit of the season)!
I was surprised by Jasper's off-stage ask for Miss Rupert's hand. Jasper's priorities are clear. He is “practical” more than honorable. However, doesn't his asking Miss Rupert also mean he was doing kind things for Biffen and Reardon out of good will rather than in hopes of getting Amy?
For me, one of the funniest lines in today's chapter was Jasper's observation of Whelpdale:
“The reverence that fellow has for me is astonishing,” [Jasper] observed with a laugh. “The queer thing is, it increases the better he knows me.”
Jasper lives more as a realist than "the Realist" Biffen.
Good point with respect to Jasper's "doing kind things for Biffen and Reardon." I was touched by these kind acts, the sincerity of care. Perhaps, this is why I felt so disappointed by the overt expression of his ultimate priorities in this chapter. I so wanted to believe that kindness and love would wend their way to the top of his priority list.
Jasper's observation of Whelpdale made me chuckle too!
Jasper did mention say "But there's much magnanimity in my character, as I have often told you. It delights me to be generous whenever I can afford it.' In other words, don't look for any sacrifice on his part. I agree with Darryl that Jasper is behaving like an ass. His comments about his "sense of duty vs. worldly advantage" doesn't consider the impact on who is on the other end of this... the two women involved. It's all about him! Jasper's biggest fan is himself. The world is full of people who will hurt others and somehow find a justification for it. They get to live guilt free just through their own powers of delusion. I can't see Jasper being a good "partner".
Jasper tells Dora that the fault of the Reardons' break up was all on Reardon's side - we remember that he was told that he played a part in that relationship that his friend Reardon did not appreciate - we may not yet know what Jasper is up to exactly, except that Jasper is a man who likes to keep all his options open -
Maybe Milvain's redeeming virtue is his commitment to writing, while apparently he has a skillset that would enable him to succeed in a more remunerative profession. He knows he's no genius at writing, has said so repeatedly, and he's realistic that absent subsidy from a spouse his chosen precession will mean a vow of poverty. Yet he remains committed to writing, even though it means he may have to sacrifice love. "Whether I marry Marian or Miss Rupert, I sacrifice my strongest feelings—in the one case to a sense of duty, in the other to worldly advantage.”
Is it any different today? It still takes grit to seek a career just as a writer absent inheritance or a spouse with means.
I have a slightly different take - that what you say is part of Jasper's inherent cowardice - he is afraid to take a leap and become a serious writer of fiction, with all that may mean - as he is afraid to commit to a relationship based on anything but material comfort - as if wealth were not as mutable as love - though the book has offered us more than glimpses of just that. Marian's inheritance, for example. He has turned his love for Marian -which I don't doubt is real in some sense - into a sense of duty i.e. it would not be fair of him to marry her without money - we know that all these justifications and excuses are only to protect himself, not Marian. Jasper's fears are masked by his ambition to be great in a world that has no consequence or meaning outside of cashing in on some unsavory enterprise or other.
Yes! Jasper's inherent cowardice is reflected in myriad manifestations of his public-facing self: "Jasper went through his duties with the suave seriousness of a man who has convinced himself that he cannot afford to despise anything that the world sanctions.”
In that passage Gissing writes of Maud's wedding-breakfast "and other such absurdities of usage as recommend themselves to Society." What's wrong with a wedding-breakfast? Seems like a harmless enough tradition. I know that Maud's marriage seems to be one based on mutual advantage, but surely not everything that Society does need be absurd? Is he a throw the baby out with the bath water type?
Really interesting take on Jasper. There is some subtlety insecurity to his character that shows in earlier chapters. This is a nice theory that incorporates them.
Would Jasper regard his commitment to writing as a virtue? A vocation? He doesn't romanticize or idealize it. He does take pleasure in his own voice, and he is a sharp observer of his world as well as himself in it. In chapter one, Gissing describes his face "as of bureaucratic type." Hmm. What were his options? I do think he likes language, as well as exercising his fine wit. And he wants to arouse curiosity among those he meets. He sees himself as a creative and original person. But writing doesn't seem like a vocation for him; it's his chosen profession, and he approaches it professionally, at least at this point. I don't know what he'd do instead, but his investment in it may mean it's his best option for making a living.
My advice: Marian needs to dump Jasper to restore her sense of dignity. She also can start looking for another guy since her parents have failed that duty. Biffen? Nora needs to tell Jasper where to go and to get together with Whelpdale. Not too sure about Amy and Jasper though it would be satisfying if she dumped him in advance of his overt pursuit, leaving him 0 for 3.
Ha ha - Yes!
Quite satisfying: "Leaving him 0 for 3!"
Jasper: “...there was a woman who is far more to me than Miss Rupert, and all her money—a woman I might perhaps marry. Don’t ask questions I shall not answer them.” I assume he’s referring to Amy. It’s not over yet.
I think it's Amy too. I went back and forth. The fact that he says "Miss Rupert, and all her money" (dismissing the money) made me think perhaps it's Marian after all. But when he says, "Don't ask questions; I shall not answer them" I do think he's talking about Amy, whom he is not going to identify to Dora. Ah, Jasper. So faithless to poor Marian. But then why does he commit to marrying Marian at once? To appease Dora? She is his conscience.
That was a strange promise but I don’t see a marriage to Marian any time soon if at all.
I'm curious about the distinction Yiyun makes today between persons and characters. As far as Milvain goes, this chapter shows him at his absolute worst so far. Without breaking things off honestly with Marian, he has proposed to someone else - while he hints that there is yet another person - clearly Amy - in whom he is even more interested!
Dora's scorn of him is satisfying, if ineffectual. He's got a rationalization for everything.
Even without knowing about Miss Rupert, I don't know how Marian can stand to be in the same room with him or lay eyes on him. But she is not the hysterical hot-headed type, only the long-suffering, self-sacrificing type. With the curly head of a lamb .. hmmm.
But what is the distinction, is it a pertinent one, between characters and people? Are we splitting the difference somehow when we read novels? I wonder how it works?
“It is not merit that succeeds in my line; it is merit plus opportunity. Marrying now, I cut myself off from opportunity, that’s all.’” More words to live by from our man Jasper
so rare in literature to read about how much people make and their hopes to make more. i can only think of American Psycho and talk of inheritances in Tender is the Night. in my own life, my one-person parlor game at parties is trying to guess how much people make.
In Jane Austen, we knew precisely how much people “had.” I think Mr. Darcy had £10k/yr. And I’ve been reading so much Victorian lit that I’m used to it. This week, listening to Trollope, I heard about how much the women had in their fortunes (£10,000 and £2,000) and how much the men wanted to borrow (£2,000 and £200). It appears to be one of the few areas of discussion in which Americans are/were more reserved. In today’s world, talking money is off limits in the US, except talking about house prices. I don’t know about the UK. So enjoy your guessing game.
right! the victorians aren't shy about money talk.