As Michael notes, Manzoni acknowledges that his diversion to explain Don Ferrante’s 300 volume collection of books may not be appealing to all.
An excellent article in The New Yorker (“Italy’s Great Historical Novel”, by Joan Acocella; October 17, 2022) describes The Betrothed as “an exemplary historical novel”, and, referring to the Ferrante library passage among others, observes that “The Betrothed” is not just a novel. … true to its time, [it’s] closer to an opera, crammed with solos, duets, choruses, and lyric passages that, from what we can tell, are there more for art’s sake than for the sake of anything else.”
The New Yorker article includes The Betrothed, along with War and Peace and Moby Dick, within the category of “large loose baggy monsters”, a criticism leveled by Henry James on novels in which the authors periodically depart from the main story to provide backstories and other diversions. I have never appreciated opera, as perhaps I should, but I love the very rich rabbit holes that Manzoni takes us down.
Spoiler Alert: The New Yorker article includes certain details you may not yet want to know.
Having a sense that I've been learning about Renzo through his reactionary and at times rash behaviours while by contrast learning about Lucia through her modesty and forbearance. They'd make a power couple with each moderating the ways of the other and must surely end up together. But everything I read seems so authentic and plausible to the extent that it doesn't seem like fiction. The problem is that it would not be plausible for Lucia to break her vow.
Thanks for the illuminating comment about their contrasts. I agree: how could Lucia possibly break the vow? Unless there will be perhaps a supernatural intervention--Our Lady removing the obligation. I'm beginning to hope!
“...since my intuition tells me that this book will only be read by the ignorant...” let me give you some history the narrator tells us. Had to laugh. // The section on the letters between Agnese and Renzo raises excellent “questions over interpretation” between sender, dragoman, reader-interpreter, and the “equal parts understanding and misunderstanding” traveling among them all. // I love the seemingly meandering tangents the narrator leads readers on, like today’s catalogue of Don Ferrante’s “learning” with the final note that he enjoys the title of master in the chivalric sciences. Which seems random but I predict will play significant role later on. // And of course, like an experience shepherd, narrator skillfully leads us back to main story, “especially since we have a long way to go before we encounter any of our characters.” And yet...they still will “be swept up up by new, more wide-spread, powerful, and extreme circumstances, affecting even the least of them.” Ominous indeed.
Lucia's struggle to forget Renzo 100 times a day suggests her vow may be more fragile than I thought -- or that it must be even stronger for keeping it.
The letter-writing drama was wonderful, and underscores another variation on the fabrications of "truth" -- by invention, by rumor, by reputation, and even in libraries, by historians and others who write books (as Don F's library soon demonstrates)--which is especially interesting in a chapter that begins as pure history--as well as by the press, as Manzoni admits in the ironic aside about his own writing for the press.
Finally, it's impossible for me to imagine Donna P ever rising above this portrait of her as a self-deluded meddler--will Manzoni allow even her to break out of the box he's written her into?
"Natural philosophy was for him not so much a study as a hobby. On this subject, he had read rather than studied the works of Aristotle and Pliny; nevertheless, thanks to these readings, and the information he had gleaned incidentally from treatises on general philosophy, and by leafing through the Magia naturalis of Giovanni Battista della Porta, as well as the three histories of Cardano (Lapidum, plantarum, animalium), the treatise on herbs, plants, and animals of Albertus Magnus, and other less important works, he could converse intelligently on the remarkable virtues and singular curiosities of many medicinal herbs; precisely describe the forms and habits of mermaids and the solitary phoenix; explain how the salamander can pass through fire without burning; how the remora, that tiny fish, has the strength and ability to bring to a halt even the largest ships on the high seas; how dewdrops turn into pearls inside an oyster shell; how the chameleon feeds on air; how crystal is formed from ice that has slowly hardened over the centuries; and other wondrous secrets of nature."
I loved this. I know a lawyer who can write nonsense with authorty like this and sometimes she wins.
I am one of those ignorant people Manzoni refers to when it comes anything beyond the most general grasp of Italian history ... and even after it's been explained (by him, by Michael) I am having the hardest time grasping it. The Spanish control, where the French fit in, all that ... sigh. Why did the Spanish not want Charles Gonzaga to accede to the Duchies of Mantua and Montferrat? Because he was French? Was Vincenzo Gonzaga also French? Why do these noblemen and women all have to intermarry and have names that don't easily signal their allegiances? I am so confused.
While the history itself is mind-boggling (and we don’t even get into the details of the ongoing 30-year war in Northern Europe), I think Manzoni presents it in a deliberately confusing way, to illustrate the chaos in which Italy was engulfed.
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but a spectacular novel that seems to have an organizing principle much like The Betrothed's is Elsa Morante's HISTORY. Large social and political forces--and war--as experienced by the "little people." Morante's book has a very different feel--no humor that I can remember, but then the horrors (of World War II) that she described were much more recent. Morante must have been very familiar with The Betrothed, no? I wonder if anyone knows if she credited it as an influence.
Heather, I read it maybe three years ago? There were definitely in print copies/normally priced copies then. It would be a shame if it’s out of print now. It’s astonishing.
None of the independent bookstores (including Bookshop) I frequent have it in stock and on Amazon (supply / demand pricing) it's $50. Suspect it's caught up in supply chain issues. I'll reach out to my local indie to see if they can get it.
Looks like some used copies might be available for in the mid to high $20s. As an author, I TOTALLY appreciate your desire to buy new (and from indies!) rather than a no-royalties-for-the-author copy, but there are circumstances….
Saw that after I posted. I'm going to reach out to my indie to see if they can get me a copy...otherwise I'll go that route. PS I recently discovered the Bookmarked series and literally had a copy of your Middlemarch Bookmarked on my desk when I saw your name pop up here. Haven't started it yet, cuz I'm doing a first-time slow read of Middlemarch with a friend and don't want any plot spoilers. (Are there plot spoilers?!?!) Otherwise, looking forward to starting your book in a few weeks!
A great commentary on journalism! "Still the writer does not always manage to say everything he means. Sometimes he even ends up saying the opposite; the same thing also happens to me when I write for the press." (446)
And Donna Prassade who essentially keeps telling Lucia to try not to think about a pink elephant--making it more difficult for her to do so, of course! (p. 448)
And possibly also with the historian/author’s work at hand, where with, “equal parts understanding and misunderstanding, (he) offers some advice, proposed a few changes, and says, “leave it to me.” Are we to trust our author as he “corrects them, improves them, emphasizes some parts, and softens or leaves out others, depending on what he thinks sounds best...”
"I am starting to wonder whether the reader really wants to hear any more of this catalogue, and to fear that you may have begun to consider me a servile copyist, and as much of a bore as the anonymous writer..." I was one of those readers!
I too felt that way, and when he says he's leaving in what he has so as not to waste his efforts, the writer in me sympathized and also thought: yeah, see if you can get it published at that word count. But reading these comments make me feel better about wading through his literary diet.
I took a discussion class on Morante’s History about 8 or 9 years ago through the Center for Fiction (now in Brooklyn, then in Manhattan). At that time I had no trouble getting a paperback copy from Amazon.
I was wearying a bit and wasn't up for a history lesson, but then 27 was an unexpected gem. So I came here to read the comments, which are great. So much to think about re: Renzo's correspondence with Agnese: the difficulty of finding someone with expertise who won't betray your confidence or overstep and try to influence events, the unintentional wrinkles in communication on both sides, and the plight overall of those who can't wield the written word. And then Donna Prassede made me laugh out loud, managing three convents and two households, which amounts to five (secret) wars, as she contends with in-laws, abbesses, etc. Even when Manzoni gets long winded (as in Don Ferrante's section), the writer in me likes the reflection that often follows on his process.
As Michael notes, Manzoni acknowledges that his diversion to explain Don Ferrante’s 300 volume collection of books may not be appealing to all.
An excellent article in The New Yorker (“Italy’s Great Historical Novel”, by Joan Acocella; October 17, 2022) describes The Betrothed as “an exemplary historical novel”, and, referring to the Ferrante library passage among others, observes that “The Betrothed” is not just a novel. … true to its time, [it’s] closer to an opera, crammed with solos, duets, choruses, and lyric passages that, from what we can tell, are there more for art’s sake than for the sake of anything else.”
The New Yorker article includes The Betrothed, along with War and Peace and Moby Dick, within the category of “large loose baggy monsters”, a criticism leveled by Henry James on novels in which the authors periodically depart from the main story to provide backstories and other diversions. I have never appreciated opera, as perhaps I should, but I love the very rich rabbit holes that Manzoni takes us down.
Spoiler Alert: The New Yorker article includes certain details you may not yet want to know.
Yes, I'v been saving that article out of fear of spoilers! I too am not an opera person but I am loving the scope and drama of this novel.
Having a sense that I've been learning about Renzo through his reactionary and at times rash behaviours while by contrast learning about Lucia through her modesty and forbearance. They'd make a power couple with each moderating the ways of the other and must surely end up together. But everything I read seems so authentic and plausible to the extent that it doesn't seem like fiction. The problem is that it would not be plausible for Lucia to break her vow.
My lips are sealed.
Thanks for the illuminating comment about their contrasts. I agree: how could Lucia possibly break the vow? Unless there will be perhaps a supernatural intervention--Our Lady removing the obligation. I'm beginning to hope!
“...since my intuition tells me that this book will only be read by the ignorant...” let me give you some history the narrator tells us. Had to laugh. // The section on the letters between Agnese and Renzo raises excellent “questions over interpretation” between sender, dragoman, reader-interpreter, and the “equal parts understanding and misunderstanding” traveling among them all. // I love the seemingly meandering tangents the narrator leads readers on, like today’s catalogue of Don Ferrante’s “learning” with the final note that he enjoys the title of master in the chivalric sciences. Which seems random but I predict will play significant role later on. // And of course, like an experience shepherd, narrator skillfully leads us back to main story, “especially since we have a long way to go before we encounter any of our characters.” And yet...they still will “be swept up up by new, more wide-spread, powerful, and extreme circumstances, affecting even the least of them.” Ominous indeed.
Consider me one of the ignorant...even after reading his history. I could barely follow it!
Lucia's struggle to forget Renzo 100 times a day suggests her vow may be more fragile than I thought -- or that it must be even stronger for keeping it.
The letter-writing drama was wonderful, and underscores another variation on the fabrications of "truth" -- by invention, by rumor, by reputation, and even in libraries, by historians and others who write books (as Don F's library soon demonstrates)--which is especially interesting in a chapter that begins as pure history--as well as by the press, as Manzoni admits in the ironic aside about his own writing for the press.
Finally, it's impossible for me to imagine Donna P ever rising above this portrait of her as a self-deluded meddler--will Manzoni allow even her to break out of the box he's written her into?
"Natural philosophy was for him not so much a study as a hobby. On this subject, he had read rather than studied the works of Aristotle and Pliny; nevertheless, thanks to these readings, and the information he had gleaned incidentally from treatises on general philosophy, and by leafing through the Magia naturalis of Giovanni Battista della Porta, as well as the three histories of Cardano (Lapidum, plantarum, animalium), the treatise on herbs, plants, and animals of Albertus Magnus, and other less important works, he could converse intelligently on the remarkable virtues and singular curiosities of many medicinal herbs; precisely describe the forms and habits of mermaids and the solitary phoenix; explain how the salamander can pass through fire without burning; how the remora, that tiny fish, has the strength and ability to bring to a halt even the largest ships on the high seas; how dewdrops turn into pearls inside an oyster shell; how the chameleon feeds on air; how crystal is formed from ice that has slowly hardened over the centuries; and other wondrous secrets of nature."
I loved this. I know a lawyer who can write nonsense with authorty like this and sometimes she wins.
I am one of those ignorant people Manzoni refers to when it comes anything beyond the most general grasp of Italian history ... and even after it's been explained (by him, by Michael) I am having the hardest time grasping it. The Spanish control, where the French fit in, all that ... sigh. Why did the Spanish not want Charles Gonzaga to accede to the Duchies of Mantua and Montferrat? Because he was French? Was Vincenzo Gonzaga also French? Why do these noblemen and women all have to intermarry and have names that don't easily signal their allegiances? I am so confused.
Thank heavens I'm not the only one! I'm still lost!
While the history itself is mind-boggling (and we don’t even get into the details of the ongoing 30-year war in Northern Europe), I think Manzoni presents it in a deliberately confusing way, to illustrate the chaos in which Italy was engulfed.
Ah, interesting.
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but a spectacular novel that seems to have an organizing principle much like The Betrothed's is Elsa Morante's HISTORY. Large social and political forces--and war--as experienced by the "little people." Morante's book has a very different feel--no humor that I can remember, but then the horrors (of World War II) that she described were much more recent. Morante must have been very familiar with The Betrothed, no? I wonder if anyone knows if she credited it as an influence.
I'm dying to read History, but the copies I've been able to find are really expensive. Is it out of print?
Heather, I read it maybe three years ago? There were definitely in print copies/normally priced copies then. It would be a shame if it’s out of print now. It’s astonishing.
None of the independent bookstores (including Bookshop) I frequent have it in stock and on Amazon (supply / demand pricing) it's $50. Suspect it's caught up in supply chain issues. I'll reach out to my local indie to see if they can get it.
Looks like some used copies might be available for in the mid to high $20s. As an author, I TOTALLY appreciate your desire to buy new (and from indies!) rather than a no-royalties-for-the-author copy, but there are circumstances….
Saw that after I posted. I'm going to reach out to my indie to see if they can get me a copy...otherwise I'll go that route. PS I recently discovered the Bookmarked series and literally had a copy of your Middlemarch Bookmarked on my desk when I saw your name pop up here. Haven't started it yet, cuz I'm doing a first-time slow read of Middlemarch with a friend and don't want any plot spoilers. (Are there plot spoilers?!?!) Otherwise, looking forward to starting your book in a few weeks!
Oh, lovely, Heather! So glad you came across it and the series. Yes, there are spoilers!
She was definitely familiar with Manzoni, whose presence is looming behind every Italian writer.
A great commentary on journalism! "Still the writer does not always manage to say everything he means. Sometimes he even ends up saying the opposite; the same thing also happens to me when I write for the press." (446)
And Donna Prassade who essentially keeps telling Lucia to try not to think about a pink elephant--making it more difficult for her to do so, of course! (p. 448)
And possibly also with the historian/author’s work at hand, where with, “equal parts understanding and misunderstanding, (he) offers some advice, proposed a few changes, and says, “leave it to me.” Are we to trust our author as he “corrects them, improves them, emphasizes some parts, and softens or leaves out others, depending on what he thinks sounds best...”
"I am starting to wonder whether the reader really wants to hear any more of this catalogue, and to fear that you may have begun to consider me a servile copyist, and as much of a bore as the anonymous writer..." I was one of those readers!
I too felt that way, and when he says he's leaving in what he has so as not to waste his efforts, the writer in me sympathized and also thought: yeah, see if you can get it published at that word count. But reading these comments make me feel better about wading through his literary diet.
I took a discussion class on Morante’s History about 8 or 9 years ago through the Center for Fiction (now in Brooklyn, then in Manhattan). At that time I had no trouble getting a paperback copy from Amazon.
I love that the “celebrated Florentine Secretary” Machiavelli is so well known, his name need not be written!
I was wearying a bit and wasn't up for a history lesson, but then 27 was an unexpected gem. So I came here to read the comments, which are great. So much to think about re: Renzo's correspondence with Agnese: the difficulty of finding someone with expertise who won't betray your confidence or overstep and try to influence events, the unintentional wrinkles in communication on both sides, and the plight overall of those who can't wield the written word. And then Donna Prassede made me laugh out loud, managing three convents and two households, which amounts to five (secret) wars, as she contends with in-laws, abbesses, etc. Even when Manzoni gets long winded (as in Don Ferrante's section), the writer in me likes the reflection that often follows on his process.