On pg 413, "At around three in the afternoon ..." How would the villagers know the time? Would there be a church bell that rings on every hour, for example?
Also, why is Lucia "held back by shame" from telling her mother about her vow? (p 415)
And, to clarify, do Lucia and her mother have to "separate" because Lucia is afraid to remain in the village -- because of Don Rodrigo?
And an observation: I laughed when I read Donna Prassede followed the saying "when it comes to friends, you should have very few, but to those few be very close" but applied it to ideas, including many that were bad!! :)
There is a village clock. I would also add that people used to be able to tell the time from the position of the sun. Lucia’s shame? There are many possible reasons, primarily that she hid the fact from her mother.
I may not remember correctly - I think Lucia at some point was also afraid her mom would somehow try to talk her out of her vow, something Lucia would be morally opposed to, as one of the reasons to keep it to herself?
The sentence that caught my attention in this chapter is: "When people cannot give vent to indignation without grave danger, they not only express it less (if at all), they actually feel it less."
(perchè gli uomini, generalmente parlando, quando l’indegnazione non si possa sfogare senza grave pericolo, non solo dimostran meno, o tengono affatto in sè quella che sentono, ma ne senton meno in effetto.) This translation is much better than the old one as it brings out the astute observation that when you don't talk about your problems you don't give them energy, make yourself feel even worse. The Penman translation didn't make this important point clear.
It would be good advice for Don Abbondio to have taken to heart, as he was always making himself feel even worse by continually talking about how bad he felt.
I LOVE Cardinal Borromeo's reasoning as he woodsheds Don Obbondio: If you're clergy and won't stand up to bullies, won't risk martyrdom, what's the point of your existence? Any lay person can do that. But standing up to bullies and rising martyrdom is a priest's raisin d'etre. This is the reason for our moral authority. And did you think we could ever vanquish the bullies by force?
I am a huge fan of a tri-part clause:in a whisper, with a shudder, and from a distance.
Donna Prassede reminds me a bit of Lady Catherine in Pride and Prejudice. "but she often made the mistake of confusing the will of heaven with her own."
And I almost, but still don't, pity Abbondio at the end of the chapter. "It's hard to be brave when you're not" reminds me of something out of the Pooh stories of AA Milne.
When I read that line of Abbondio I admit I felt a spark of warmth for him. Like Groucho Marx, he’s despicable- but hilarious and always gets the best lines.
While Donna Prassede may possess a “strong propensity for good deeds”, it is her propensity to “make matters worse” and her not infrequent “misjudgments” that makes her offer to provide shelter to our poor suffering Lucia perilous at best.
Donna Prassede immediately exhibits her propensity for misjudgments by her snap evaluations of both Lucia and Renzo. Her inclination to both make and keep secret her plans for Lucia (one of her maxims, “In order to do what’s good for a person, the first rule, in most cases, is not to tell them what you have planned”) will both add to the tangled web in which we find ourselves and does not bode well for the betrothed.
Donna Prassede "asked questions and dispensed advice, all with a certain air of innate superiority, but corrected by expressions of humility, tempered by shows of concern, and seasoned with so much spirituality that Agnese, almost immediately, and Lucia, soon after, started to feel a lifting of the oppressive deference they had initially felt in the presence of nobility." Now that's how you complicate a character in one sentence!
It's amazing how every new character steals the show. This extraordinary Donna Prassede! Everything said about her is hilarious, insightful, and ominous for Lucia.
(An irrelevant aside, Manzoni's commentary more and more makes me think of John Oliver -- the scathing observation coated in humor.)
In the midst of his rebuke from the Cardinal, Don A is compared to a chick (again), this time "between the talons of a hawk, dangling above an unknown region..." and I wonder whether the comparison starts to take on more than momentary meaning. And I love how he demonstrates his everyman-ish commonsensical self-justifying lack of courage, still insisting "These saints are odd," even when met with heroic and even sympathetic encouragements from the Cardinal.
And again, as in every scene with the Cardinal, I sense another very small hint that he, even he, will not in the end be as perfectly brave and virtuous as he seems and exhorts others to be.
I'd have to look again, but for example earlier when there was just a little vanity in his humble visit to the tailor and Lucia ... here maybe some suggestion in his exhortations that he too has failed at living up to them? or maybe that's just something I felt without yet having evidence? it seems to come up now and then, and of course we were warned at the beginning that he was an inquisitor, with all the cruelty that went with that. And from the other direction, all those comical things said about Donna P. and her good deeds may also apply to the non-comical character too. Just waiting to see ...
Thanks, Catherine. I'm hoping that conversely maybe Don A will do something by the end of the book to complicate his portrait as complete coward and solipsist!
I have to admit that the Cardinal perfectly articulates why I shouldn’t have been cutting Don Abbondio so much slack. Don A isn’t just a guy, he’s chosen a certain (supposed) calling.
This was one of my favourite chapters so far! There was a very satisfying schadenfreude generated by the village gossip about Don Rodrigo and then the Cardinal’s dressing down of Don Abbondio. And a lot to look forward to from the funny and foreboding Donna Prassede
Three questions for Michael or others:
On pg 413, "At around three in the afternoon ..." How would the villagers know the time? Would there be a church bell that rings on every hour, for example?
Also, why is Lucia "held back by shame" from telling her mother about her vow? (p 415)
And, to clarify, do Lucia and her mother have to "separate" because Lucia is afraid to remain in the village -- because of Don Rodrigo?
And an observation: I laughed when I read Donna Prassede followed the saying "when it comes to friends, you should have very few, but to those few be very close" but applied it to ideas, including many that were bad!! :)
There is a village clock. I would also add that people used to be able to tell the time from the position of the sun. Lucia’s shame? There are many possible reasons, primarily that she hid the fact from her mother.
Thanks, Michael. I'm curious if the villagers would themselves have used the expression "o'clock" at this time?
And, do she and her mother feel Lucia must leave the village out of fear of Don Rodrigo, even with the Cardinal now staunchly on her side?
he won't be there for long enough to protect her forever -- and they know Don R will come back
I may not remember correctly - I think Lucia at some point was also afraid her mom would somehow try to talk her out of her vow, something Lucia would be morally opposed to, as one of the reasons to keep it to herself?
The sentence that caught my attention in this chapter is: "When people cannot give vent to indignation without grave danger, they not only express it less (if at all), they actually feel it less."
(perchè gli uomini, generalmente parlando, quando l’indegnazione non si possa sfogare senza grave pericolo, non solo dimostran meno, o tengono affatto in sè quella che sentono, ma ne senton meno in effetto.) This translation is much better than the old one as it brings out the astute observation that when you don't talk about your problems you don't give them energy, make yourself feel even worse. The Penman translation didn't make this important point clear.
It would be good advice for Don Abbondio to have taken to heart, as he was always making himself feel even worse by continually talking about how bad he felt.
I LOVE Cardinal Borromeo's reasoning as he woodsheds Don Obbondio: If you're clergy and won't stand up to bullies, won't risk martyrdom, what's the point of your existence? Any lay person can do that. But standing up to bullies and rising martyrdom is a priest's raisin d'etre. This is the reason for our moral authority. And did you think we could ever vanquish the bullies by force?
“as he woodsheds” Don Abbondio - Excellent!
I am a huge fan of a tri-part clause:in a whisper, with a shudder, and from a distance.
Donna Prassede reminds me a bit of Lady Catherine in Pride and Prejudice. "but she often made the mistake of confusing the will of heaven with her own."
And I almost, but still don't, pity Abbondio at the end of the chapter. "It's hard to be brave when you're not" reminds me of something out of the Pooh stories of AA Milne.
Great comparison between Donna Prassede and Lady Catherine, @KristinBoldon!
When I read that line of Abbondio I admit I felt a spark of warmth for him. Like Groucho Marx, he’s despicable- but hilarious and always gets the best lines.
While Donna Prassede may possess a “strong propensity for good deeds”, it is her propensity to “make matters worse” and her not infrequent “misjudgments” that makes her offer to provide shelter to our poor suffering Lucia perilous at best.
Donna Prassede immediately exhibits her propensity for misjudgments by her snap evaluations of both Lucia and Renzo. Her inclination to both make and keep secret her plans for Lucia (one of her maxims, “In order to do what’s good for a person, the first rule, in most cases, is not to tell them what you have planned”) will both add to the tangled web in which we find ourselves and does not bode well for the betrothed.
Donna Prassede "asked questions and dispensed advice, all with a certain air of innate superiority, but corrected by expressions of humility, tempered by shows of concern, and seasoned with so much spirituality that Agnese, almost immediately, and Lucia, soon after, started to feel a lifting of the oppressive deference they had initially felt in the presence of nobility." Now that's how you complicate a character in one sentence!
It's amazing how every new character steals the show. This extraordinary Donna Prassede! Everything said about her is hilarious, insightful, and ominous for Lucia.
(An irrelevant aside, Manzoni's commentary more and more makes me think of John Oliver -- the scathing observation coated in humor.)
In the midst of his rebuke from the Cardinal, Don A is compared to a chick (again), this time "between the talons of a hawk, dangling above an unknown region..." and I wonder whether the comparison starts to take on more than momentary meaning. And I love how he demonstrates his everyman-ish commonsensical self-justifying lack of courage, still insisting "These saints are odd," even when met with heroic and even sympathetic encouragements from the Cardinal.
And again, as in every scene with the Cardinal, I sense another very small hint that he, even he, will not in the end be as perfectly brave and virtuous as he seems and exhorts others to be.
“It's amazing how every new character steals the show.”— well said!
What is the small hint you saw about the Cardinal, Catherine?
I'd have to look again, but for example earlier when there was just a little vanity in his humble visit to the tailor and Lucia ... here maybe some suggestion in his exhortations that he too has failed at living up to them? or maybe that's just something I felt without yet having evidence? it seems to come up now and then, and of course we were warned at the beginning that he was an inquisitor, with all the cruelty that went with that. And from the other direction, all those comical things said about Donna P. and her good deeds may also apply to the non-comical character too. Just waiting to see ...
Thanks, Catherine. I'm hoping that conversely maybe Don A will do something by the end of the book to complicate his portrait as complete coward and solipsist!
yes, I've been wondering if this will be possible too --- we're certainly in a universe of anything-can-happen
Yes!
I have to admit that the Cardinal perfectly articulates why I shouldn’t have been cutting Don Abbondio so much slack. Don A isn’t just a guy, he’s chosen a certain (supposed) calling.
The Italian miniseries clip is great fun. A lot is conveyed even though I can’t follow the language.
This was one of my favourite chapters so far! There was a very satisfying schadenfreude generated by the village gossip about Don Rodrigo and then the Cardinal’s dressing down of Don Abbondio. And a lot to look forward to from the funny and foreboding Donna Prassede
Donna Prassede seems likely to be another tangle in this knotty story.
enjoying the warmth of the good mob, versus the bravi or the dangerous mob.