"N]othing could be worse than to be an animal without claws or teeth yet no inclination to be devoured....He was especially critical of his fellow priests who, at their own risk, took the side of a weak victim against a powerful bully. He considered it begging for trouble, a wish to straighten the legs of dogs. More sternly he called it meddling in worldly affairs, and tarnishing the dignity of the sacred ministry."
Rereading the last 2 pages to focus on Perpetua, I had to laugh at the priest telling her to be quiet when my memory of the section as a whole was his talking too much with the thugs. He needed to shush.
I LOVE judging this priest! This priest is something else, like something out of Turgenev or fantasy genre fiction. So perverse how he gets irritated when people take the side of weak victims being bullied.
“He considered it begging for trouble, a wish to straighten the legs of dogs.” Such a memorable image, such a great turn of phrase.
I’m also surprised at how funny this read is so far and how easily it flows. I’m not struggling at all to get into the book, unlike the previous time I read it when the endeavor was a slog.
Found myself reading this a few times just for the joy of it, and marvelling at how much is covered in the one sentence:
“But any man who, before committing a crime, had arranged to seek ready sanctuary in a monastery or a palace where the police would never dare to set foot; and any man, with no protection other than the livery that bound a powerful family, indeed an entire social class, to defend him for the sake of its vanity and interests, was free to do as he liked, and could scoff at the bombast of the decrees.”
It's debatable whether the priest's meekness is a failing or, in a society where laws aren't enforced and rich people have private armies, a personal advantage. The complexity of his situation is described so well.
I'm also inclined to agree that meekness is, not only a survival mechanism, but something like the fact that he is neither noble nor rich - something that is external to him. Though it seems rather convenient to have a main character to whom we can't attribute any responsibility...might be an authorial legerdemain.
I love the names that like with Dickens, are highly satirical. “abbondio” translated in google translate to “abundance” beside “Don Abbondio” rhyming with itself comically, there is no question what the author thinks he is full of...and it’s not Christian piety. Perpetua is perpetually over sharing her opinions. I also love the set up. If on page 16 we thought the priest might be treated with a trace of sympathy, by 19 the reader is thoroughly relieved of that possibility.
The 2 bravi we have met so far are not the brains of any operation; they are low level foot soldiers. Today they would be reading Soldier of Fortune magazine looking for contract jobs in war torn regions of the world. There is, however, Mafia leadership potential in a character we haven’t met yet.
private security came to mind -- the whole class description actually sounds far too contemporary-- not the writing, I mean, unfortunately, our ongoing situation
Perpetua is arguably the most well-known character in the book. If I told you my boss was a Simon Legree, even if you’d never read Uncle Tom’s Cabin, you’d know what I meant. In Italy, if I moaned to my best friends that I needed to find a new Perpetua, everyone would know what I meant and where the name came from.
I’m enjoying the slang and wit and the asides in the translation! The fun the translator’s having - his expertise touched with mischief - is infectious. I spoke Italian when I was a kid, living in Rome. How I wish I remembered enough to read the original, too. Side by side.
Wonderful rendering of characters -- the coarse and menacing bravi; “Our Don Abbondio...neither, noble, nor rich, nor especially courageous.” Perpetua, having “passed the canonical age of forty, still unmarried, having rejected every suitor, according to her, or never having found a dog who wanted her, according to her friends.” 😂 And an initial sense of the betrothed -- Renzo “another headstrong one” “so smitten by Lucia.”
As has been said already, I like the characterization of "our clay pot in the company of iron kettles," and wonder if his meekness, and his general annoyed temperament, is circumstantial. "neither noble, nor rich, nor especially courageous" - the first two are, for sure, circumstantial.
It's too early in the novel to attribute traits to inborn character, as the text seems to suggest. I'm inclined toward nurture, and am curious if his upbringing, which is only glancingly discussed, plays a large part.
Perpetua… “Do you want me to be forced to go and ask every Tom, Dick, and Harry what happened to my own master?“ Who would have guessed that a reference to “Tom, Dick and Harry“ would be in a novel placed in the early 17th century??? (Wiki: The origin of the phrase is unknown. The earliest known citation is from the 17th-century English theologian John Owen who used the phrase in 1657. Owen told a governing body at Oxford University that "our critical situation and our common interests were discussed out of journals and newspapers by every Tom, Dick and Harry.")
That expression is not actually in the novel. Manzoni writes, "Vuol dunque ch'io sia costretta di domandar qua e là cosa sia accaduto al mio padrone?" Literally, "so you would force me to ask here and there what happened to my master," which I translated as, "So do I have to go asking around to find out what happened to my master?"
I did not expect this novel to be so funny.
"N]othing could be worse than to be an animal without claws or teeth yet no inclination to be devoured....He was especially critical of his fellow priests who, at their own risk, took the side of a weak victim against a powerful bully. He considered it begging for trouble, a wish to straighten the legs of dogs. More sternly he called it meddling in worldly affairs, and tarnishing the dignity of the sacred ministry."
Yes Manzoni is hilarious
Rereading the last 2 pages to focus on Perpetua, I had to laugh at the priest telling her to be quiet when my memory of the section as a whole was his talking too much with the thugs. He needed to shush.
I LOVE judging this priest! This priest is something else, like something out of Turgenev or fantasy genre fiction. So perverse how he gets irritated when people take the side of weak victims being bullied.
“He considered it begging for trouble, a wish to straighten the legs of dogs.” Such a memorable image, such a great turn of phrase.
I’m also surprised at how funny this read is so far and how easily it flows. I’m not struggling at all to get into the book, unlike the previous time I read it when the endeavor was a slog.
Found myself reading this a few times just for the joy of it, and marvelling at how much is covered in the one sentence:
“But any man who, before committing a crime, had arranged to seek ready sanctuary in a monastery or a palace where the police would never dare to set foot; and any man, with no protection other than the livery that bound a powerful family, indeed an entire social class, to defend him for the sake of its vanity and interests, was free to do as he liked, and could scoff at the bombast of the decrees.”
It's debatable whether the priest's meekness is a failing or, in a society where laws aren't enforced and rich people have private armies, a personal advantage. The complexity of his situation is described so well.
I'm also inclined to agree that meekness is, not only a survival mechanism, but something like the fact that he is neither noble nor rich - something that is external to him. Though it seems rather convenient to have a main character to whom we can't attribute any responsibility...might be an authorial legerdemain.
You'll have to wait and see! I'll only say that there is no authorial legerdemain.
“a clay pot forced to travel in the company of many an iron kettle” - at least he knows it!
Perhaps Perpetua is one of his kettles….
“an earthenware jar compelled to travel in the company of many iron pots“ (Penman translation)
I love the names that like with Dickens, are highly satirical. “abbondio” translated in google translate to “abundance” beside “Don Abbondio” rhyming with itself comically, there is no question what the author thinks he is full of...and it’s not Christian piety. Perpetua is perpetually over sharing her opinions. I also love the set up. If on page 16 we thought the priest might be treated with a trace of sympathy, by 19 the reader is thoroughly relieved of that possibility.
Is the bravi the 19th century version - or the predecessor to - the modern day mafia?
The 2 bravi we have met so far are not the brains of any operation; they are low level foot soldiers. Today they would be reading Soldier of Fortune magazine looking for contract jobs in war torn regions of the world. There is, however, Mafia leadership potential in a character we haven’t met yet.
Interesting...thank you!
In my opinion that is; Andrea M. has a slightly different take on it.
not really, more like "muscle" for the powerful
private security came to mind -- the whole class description actually sounds far too contemporary-- not the writing, I mean, unfortunately, our ongoing situation
Perpetua is arguably the most well-known character in the book. If I told you my boss was a Simon Legree, even if you’d never read Uncle Tom’s Cabin, you’d know what I meant. In Italy, if I moaned to my best friends that I needed to find a new Perpetua, everyone would know what I meant and where the name came from.
I’m enjoying the slang and wit and the asides in the translation! The fun the translator’s having - his expertise touched with mischief - is infectious. I spoke Italian when I was a kid, living in Rome. How I wish I remembered enough to read the original, too. Side by side.
I am only just learning Italian, and have ordered a copy of it in Italian to read side by side anyway, or to try, or to do it in bits. Why not?
Wonderful rendering of characters -- the coarse and menacing bravi; “Our Don Abbondio...neither, noble, nor rich, nor especially courageous.” Perpetua, having “passed the canonical age of forty, still unmarried, having rejected every suitor, according to her, or never having found a dog who wanted her, according to her friends.” 😂 And an initial sense of the betrothed -- Renzo “another headstrong one” “so smitten by Lucia.”
As has been said already, I like the characterization of "our clay pot in the company of iron kettles," and wonder if his meekness, and his general annoyed temperament, is circumstantial. "neither noble, nor rich, nor especially courageous" - the first two are, for sure, circumstantial.
It's too early in the novel to attribute traits to inborn character, as the text seems to suggest. I'm inclined toward nurture, and am curious if his upbringing, which is only glancingly discussed, plays a large part.
Perpetua… “Do you want me to be forced to go and ask every Tom, Dick, and Harry what happened to my own master?“ Who would have guessed that a reference to “Tom, Dick and Harry“ would be in a novel placed in the early 17th century??? (Wiki: The origin of the phrase is unknown. The earliest known citation is from the 17th-century English theologian John Owen who used the phrase in 1657. Owen told a governing body at Oxford University that "our critical situation and our common interests were discussed out of journals and newspapers by every Tom, Dick and Harry.")
That expression is not actually in the novel. Manzoni writes, "Vuol dunque ch'io sia costretta di domandar qua e là cosa sia accaduto al mio padrone?" Literally, "so you would force me to ask here and there what happened to my master," which I translated as, "So do I have to go asking around to find out what happened to my master?"
Thank you. Interesting to see the differences in the translations.
The Betrothed reminds me so much of Don Quixote.
Yes!
but the crazy thing is i cannot stand don quixote. could not finish it.
This already appears to have a complete narrative arc; DQ is more episodic. But stylistically, they are similar.
"But even in the midst of his agitation, he was somewhat reassured by the consoling testimony of his conscience"...
A comfort from a power greater than himself can overcome his agitation