Mar 15, 2023·edited Mar 15, 2023Liked by Michael Moore
So far, I don't see much Divine Providence at work in the novel. Renzo uses his wits to escape trouble (after stumbling into it). I did think it was a bit miraculous he found the river, but that's because I'm directionally challenged and probably would have missed it. Also, he seems to especially give credit to God for helping him find a job, but we were told from the very beginning that his cousin had been long suggesting that he work with him.
Renzo is alone and afraid. Believing in a higher power helps him regain his courage and continue on his way. Belief in a larger divine plan is powerful stuff. I love how he prays and then offers his coins to the starving villagers, an act of charity in keeping with his Christian faith.
Yes. He himself believes he has become an instrument of Providence: "Here's a gift from Providence!" he says, as he gives his last coins away to those worse off than himself.
This also directionally challenged reader expected him to end up back in Milan! But seriously, without knowing how the novel ends, I think this debate about divine providence or human ingenuity is what makes this book a classic.
I'm curious whether the author himself is speaking through the narrator's POV when he says "it truly was Providence" or whether the author wants the readers to use the evidence in the story itself to draw their own conclusions and not align with any particular character or the narrator.
Also, to me, when the characters/narrator refer to Providence, I have a hard time thinking they're referring to "God." Rather are they referring to Fate? Or perhaps more obliquely to luck or chance? Which could make this novel a debate between the superiority of the influence of God versus Providence (non-divine Fate) versus luck/chance!
Mar 16, 2023·edited Mar 16, 2023Liked by Michael Moore
I'm curious what the difference is between divine intervention and divine providence. I'm not sure how divine providence could be a theme in such a heavily plotted novel if there is no intervention. The novel has fate and gratitude as themes, for sure, but I guess I don't see divine providence as a theme, unless it is taken very generally as the idea that God is in charge of everything. I can think of other authors who explore the idea of God as the prime mover, but their novels are usually quieter and more contemplative. I don't feel like Manzoni has the same focus. He seems to care more about how people relate to other people.
I too see more of a suggestion that it's human beings who muck things up, or save the day ... but if Renzo and Lucia ever come out of this enormous mess intact, I may have to credit Divine Providence....
There is something providential happening when Renzo hears the sounds of the river Adda....."It's the Adda!" he exclaimed. It was like finding a long-lost friend, a brother, a savior......". He is able to go on his way like a new man.
This is a chapter in which Manzoni is a great advocate of the power of prayer. When Lorenzo is in a state of fear, he restores his equanimity by reciting prayers for the dead.
Maybe the role of Providence is just this. Once when I visited Chartres Cathedral, one of Europe's finest Gothic cathedrals that has endured in its current form pretty much intact through the Jacobins' Cult of Reason and two world wars, we enjoyed a wonderful tour and explanation of the magnificent structure and stained glass by a distinguished Oxford Don. At one pint he stopped and pointed at a glass fronted cabinet that we could not access because it happened to be obstructed by scaffolding. It was obscured by darkness; seemingly, it was attracting no interest. He said that in that display was the Virgin Mary's veil. Then he added, go ahead and smirk, but people's' belief that that cloth is the Virgin's original and genuine veil is the reason this edifice we've been enjoying was built and maintained, the reason it exists, for this cathedral is a monument to that sacred object.
Enzo's struggle to pray before bed made me smile. When I was growing up religious, praying before bed was such a challenge for me. For some reason, like swallowing a toad. I could hardly bear to do it.
You just brought back a memory: I, too, had to pray before going to bed. As a reminder, there was a print on the wall of a little boy in his onesie praying with his eyes closed.
i used to pray before bed every night and asked for personal times of plenty, so to speak. and also the genie wish which is to wish for the ability to wish for anything...
“They call us baggiani, blockheads...how come it hasn’t changed? So far it hasn’t. Maybe with time. Maybe with the next generation...”. I think not. A poignant description of the age-old challenges of the immigrant and anyone considered to be other.
Renzo is full into his hero’s journey--entering a forest that repels him, where “The trees in the distance looked like strange, twisted monsters.” Struggling with the “undefined horror that his spirit had been fighting for hours...on the verge of losing his mind, but frightened most of all by his own fear.” But he pulls through to then calmly ponder what to do. And what a night he spends in that dilapidated hut on a bed prepared by Providence, “On what was supposed to have been the fifth night of marriage!” It’s all so symbolic, and even more so in the manner he crosses finally to Bergamo: “The river was too strong at that point for a direct crossing, so the boat had to move diagonally, alternately fighting and following the current.” Renzo’s flight from his village has proceeded in the same manner, and I presume will continue in the same vein. Great chapter ❤️
The forest painted by Manzoni/Renzo's words seems much denser and more frightening than in the visual representations!
Does Renzo not realize how dangerous it might be to send home for money etc.? letting them know where he is, and Don R. and his spies also?
Does he really have the patience to accept being called a "blockhead"?
So many new questions, and I'm still stuck many chapters back on the promise that Renzo himself is doing Don R's work for him, bringing himself back into his sights.
As we read of his expectations of salvation once reunited with his cousin, I was prepared for Renzo’s disappointment. Turns out that Bartolo is a prince; empathetic, generous and loving to his cousin. Humble as well putting up with the “cloth-head” moniker. Now I’m apprehensive that “cloth-head” Renzo’s temperament will get him into trouble. (Penman translation)
Yes, but in any narrative anything or anyone this good can't be this good if the narrative is to move forward. I'm a first time reader, so no spoiler alert. But me thinks things won't be smooth sailing from here.
"Even before he could call her "mother" she had welcomed him into her language and her heart..." I wondered about the word "language" in this line. Does Agnese speak a different dialect? Or is this a metaphorical language, that she speaks with him as if he is her son rather than a friend of her daughter's? Either way, is this meant to forward Manzoni's theme of or efforts toward a common Italian language?
I love the divine providence in Renzo’s head; surely the root of the word implies provision- a comforting notion that the divine ‘takes care’/ ie provides for us when we can’t figure things out for ourselves. Without Google Maps Renzo walks towards the river.
About providence: everyone used to be told in school it's the novel's main character, remnants of a society where religion affected every aspect of life, including public school education. Whether teachers still present this decade-old interpretation, I'll ask my daughter.
Last sentence: i would have translated differently: "And it truly was Providence, because we are about to see how much Renzo COULD COUNT ON THE belongings and the money he had left at home." Manzoni is more ambiguous about whether Renzo will eventually get his stuff.
Having said this, I am open to multiple translations. If I were to do another version today -- now that I’ve created a readable and moderate translation (moderation is Manzoni’s middle name!) -- I’d be tempted to go a little further. But I am happy with what I’ve done, after years of contemplating every word 😇.
I see a lot of practical religious uses (as well as the usual impractical bits and bobs). This is my kind of religious novel! The way On the Waterfront has my kind of priest (RIP Karl Malden).
So far, I don't see much Divine Providence at work in the novel. Renzo uses his wits to escape trouble (after stumbling into it). I did think it was a bit miraculous he found the river, but that's because I'm directionally challenged and probably would have missed it. Also, he seems to especially give credit to God for helping him find a job, but we were told from the very beginning that his cousin had been long suggesting that he work with him.
Renzo is alone and afraid. Believing in a higher power helps him regain his courage and continue on his way. Belief in a larger divine plan is powerful stuff. I love how he prays and then offers his coins to the starving villagers, an act of charity in keeping with his Christian faith.
Yes. He himself believes he has become an instrument of Providence: "Here's a gift from Providence!" he says, as he gives his last coins away to those worse off than himself.
This also directionally challenged reader expected him to end up back in Milan! But seriously, without knowing how the novel ends, I think this debate about divine providence or human ingenuity is what makes this book a classic.
I'm curious whether the author himself is speaking through the narrator's POV when he says "it truly was Providence" or whether the author wants the readers to use the evidence in the story itself to draw their own conclusions and not align with any particular character or the narrator.
Also, to me, when the characters/narrator refer to Providence, I have a hard time thinking they're referring to "God." Rather are they referring to Fate? Or perhaps more obliquely to luck or chance? Which could make this novel a debate between the superiority of the influence of God versus Providence (non-divine Fate) versus luck/chance!
I'm curious what the difference is between divine intervention and divine providence. I'm not sure how divine providence could be a theme in such a heavily plotted novel if there is no intervention. The novel has fate and gratitude as themes, for sure, but I guess I don't see divine providence as a theme, unless it is taken very generally as the idea that God is in charge of everything. I can think of other authors who explore the idea of God as the prime mover, but their novels are usually quieter and more contemplative. I don't feel like Manzoni has the same focus. He seems to care more about how people relate to other people.
Thank you for the video!
I too see more of a suggestion that it's human beings who muck things up, or save the day ... but if Renzo and Lucia ever come out of this enormous mess intact, I may have to credit Divine Providence....
There is something providential happening when Renzo hears the sounds of the river Adda....."It's the Adda!" he exclaimed. It was like finding a long-lost friend, a brother, a savior......". He is able to go on his way like a new man.
This is a chapter in which Manzoni is a great advocate of the power of prayer. When Lorenzo is in a state of fear, he restores his equanimity by reciting prayers for the dead.
Maybe the role of Providence is just this. Once when I visited Chartres Cathedral, one of Europe's finest Gothic cathedrals that has endured in its current form pretty much intact through the Jacobins' Cult of Reason and two world wars, we enjoyed a wonderful tour and explanation of the magnificent structure and stained glass by a distinguished Oxford Don. At one pint he stopped and pointed at a glass fronted cabinet that we could not access because it happened to be obstructed by scaffolding. It was obscured by darkness; seemingly, it was attracting no interest. He said that in that display was the Virgin Mary's veil. Then he added, go ahead and smirk, but people's' belief that that cloth is the Virgin's original and genuine veil is the reason this edifice we've been enjoying was built and maintained, the reason it exists, for this cathedral is a monument to that sacred object.
Enzo's struggle to pray before bed made me smile. When I was growing up religious, praying before bed was such a challenge for me. For some reason, like swallowing a toad. I could hardly bear to do it.
You just brought back a memory: I, too, had to pray before going to bed. As a reminder, there was a print on the wall of a little boy in his onesie praying with his eyes closed.
i used to pray before bed every night and asked for personal times of plenty, so to speak. and also the genie wish which is to wish for the ability to wish for anything...
“They call us baggiani, blockheads...how come it hasn’t changed? So far it hasn’t. Maybe with time. Maybe with the next generation...”. I think not. A poignant description of the age-old challenges of the immigrant and anyone considered to be other.
Well said!
Renzo is full into his hero’s journey--entering a forest that repels him, where “The trees in the distance looked like strange, twisted monsters.” Struggling with the “undefined horror that his spirit had been fighting for hours...on the verge of losing his mind, but frightened most of all by his own fear.” But he pulls through to then calmly ponder what to do. And what a night he spends in that dilapidated hut on a bed prepared by Providence, “On what was supposed to have been the fifth night of marriage!” It’s all so symbolic, and even more so in the manner he crosses finally to Bergamo: “The river was too strong at that point for a direct crossing, so the boat had to move diagonally, alternately fighting and following the current.” Renzo’s flight from his village has proceeded in the same manner, and I presume will continue in the same vein. Great chapter ❤️
I agree. I love this: "frightened most of all by his own fear." So authentic a feeling (says this scaredy-cat, anyway)!
"Better to sleep in a tree than in a prison."
The forest painted by Manzoni/Renzo's words seems much denser and more frightening than in the visual representations!
Does Renzo not realize how dangerous it might be to send home for money etc.? letting them know where he is, and Don R. and his spies also?
Does he really have the patience to accept being called a "blockhead"?
So many new questions, and I'm still stuck many chapters back on the promise that Renzo himself is doing Don R's work for him, bringing himself back into his sights.
As we read of his expectations of salvation once reunited with his cousin, I was prepared for Renzo’s disappointment. Turns out that Bartolo is a prince; empathetic, generous and loving to his cousin. Humble as well putting up with the “cloth-head” moniker. Now I’m apprehensive that “cloth-head” Renzo’s temperament will get him into trouble. (Penman translation)
Yes, but in any narrative anything or anyone this good can't be this good if the narrative is to move forward. I'm a first time reader, so no spoiler alert. But me thinks things won't be smooth sailing from here.
"Even before he could call her "mother" she had welcomed him into her language and her heart..." I wondered about the word "language" in this line. Does Agnese speak a different dialect? Or is this a metaphorical language, that she speaks with him as if he is her son rather than a friend of her daughter's? Either way, is this meant to forward Manzoni's theme of or efforts toward a common Italian language?
Her everyday speech
I wondered the same thing, Heather!
I love the divine providence in Renzo’s head; surely the root of the word implies provision- a comforting notion that the divine ‘takes care’/ ie provides for us when we can’t figure things out for ourselves. Without Google Maps Renzo walks towards the river.
About providence: everyone used to be told in school it's the novel's main character, remnants of a society where religion affected every aspect of life, including public school education. Whether teachers still present this decade-old interpretation, I'll ask my daughter.
Last sentence: i would have translated differently: "And it truly was Providence, because we are about to see how much Renzo COULD COUNT ON THE belongings and the money he had left at home." Manzoni is more ambiguous about whether Renzo will eventually get his stuff.
That doesn’t really work in English, grammatically or colloquially.
Having said this, I am open to multiple translations. If I were to do another version today -- now that I’ve created a readable and moderate translation (moderation is Manzoni’s middle name!) -- I’d be tempted to go a little further. But I am happy with what I’ve done, after years of contemplating every word 😇.
I see a lot of practical religious uses (as well as the usual impractical bits and bobs). This is my kind of religious novel! The way On the Waterfront has my kind of priest (RIP Karl Malden).