Amazing backstory in today's reading. I have to admit I was unsure if I wanted to leave the main flow of the story at first, but it was well worth it in the end. Manzoni writes psychological coercion and confusion very well. I imagine his political commentary on issues of his day was brilliant.
The compassion elicited by this chapter is one of outrange over the psychological coercion to which Gertrude was subjected by her father and his complicit subjects. (Sadness as well.)
While “the background of this unhappy woman” elicits sympathy for la Signora, narrator offers details of a dark side, that she is not a kind, loving nun. In yesterday’s reading, there were the sudden glimpses of a “deep and long-repressed hatred, something vaguely menacing and cruel,” as well as the “aura of strangeness” she emanates. I don’t think this bodes well for shy and innocent Lucia. Another layer to this unfolding story.
"But religion, as the poor girl had been taught and understood it to mean, did not prohibit pride. On the contrary, it sanctified it, and proposed it as a means to attain earthly happiness." Love the juxtaposition to Fra Christoforo's faith and the nuance with which Manzoni is examining religion. I wonder: Did his portrayal of Signora's faith ever elicit criticism or cries of heretic?
i was wondering that. lines like "...religion thus became just one of her fantasies..." akin to how i think about my catholic school / presbyterian upbringing. how else can religion make sense other than as a fable/allergory/tall tale in my opinion.
yesterday ended on a moment of irony as the Guardian took pride in what he thought was his management of the nun, but which was really her own measurement of her behavior in his presence. So acute!
And then, once again, the amazing detail of the movements in "these deplorable little wars with herself" -- and the strangely parallel dramas of Lucia's and Gertrude's refusals -- both based on being true to herself in the face of patriarchal pressure -- and Gertrude's torment over capitulation.
The way this is so minutely rendered, and yet in such a small space, makes me contemplate what we lose in modern and contemporary overhasty psychological generalizing and categorizing and labeling -- so much nuance and individuality. Loving this read!
I’m loving this read as well. Wondering what you mean by “modern and contemporary overhasty psychological generalizing and categorizing and labeling”? And can you give an example?
my first thought was all the way back to Freud -- just the reducing of any complex details of character and situation to some cookie-cutter abstract theory (of any kind, even those I agree with as theories) -- so I think sometimes there's a mental shorthand that sums someone up (in real life or in fiction or drama etc.) without engaging with the subtle complications the way this novel does -- also in War and Peace and Moby Dick etc. -- and sorry, I'm being general, not coming up with an exact example -- but what's coming up is Rebecca Solnit's essay on categories in "The Mother of All Questions" -- I don't remember its title though
also remembering recently as we read Villette, the tendency to diagnose Lucy as depressed ... and maybe she was but to say this doesn't exhaust or explain her character, and sometimes a diagnosis is given as if that exhausts all there is to say about a character (or a living person)
The detail and care given to the motivations and experiences of each character makes this novel a psychological exploration as much as it is historical fiction, social commentary, and political philosophy: It is so many things!
"That she could, if she had wanted to, if should would like to, if she did indeed want to. This was, in fact, what she wanted" (...che lo poteva, pur che l'avesse voluto, che lo vorrebbe, che lo voleva; e lo voleva in fatti.) So beautifully translated here, with it's echoing refrain of the verb "volere", reminds us that Gertrude has no power to pursue her own desires and despite her social status, has been denied self-determination. This in contrast to the peasant, Lucia, whose journey toward her own desires is at the center of the novel.
I somewhat expected to feel sympathy for the Signora upon hearing her backstory. Yet I don’t. Unlike Cristoforo and Lucia, the Signora currently seems to have ulterior motives (and, in the past, seems to have learned to manipulate in the style of her manipulators).
But who knows…could turn out that Lucia is the ultimate villain with the twists and turns this story is taking!
In the scenes with Gertrude and her father, mother, brother I kept waiting for some cue or eye contact or bit of sympathy from her mother. There’s the need to dispose of her but also to keep her away from men? No sex or marriage or children. Which makes me wonder in what subversive ways G will leave her mark. I felt like I was going through these twists and turns and near-exits with her. This writing! To think I might never have read this novel!
Lots in today's reading evokes the question of free will. La Signora rejects the future her family has planned for her, to be a num. Then once it becomes her own decision, she is reconciled to it. But was it really her decision? Is any of us truly free?
I was struck how early on in this reading la Signora's tale seemed post-enlightenment, post-Napoleon. The fact her family would consign her to being a nun is taken as a given as a bad fate. Yet, at the end, she's reconciled to it. I have a feeling this may turn out to be the path that fulfills her.
I am fascinated by La Signora's backstory. I had no idea that Manzoni would be so deeply, cannily, empathically psychological. (I had no idea about anything! I jumped into this read-along simply because I had read that The Betrothed was THE touchstone Italian novel. I am so happy to be discovering it, 15 pages at a time.) Thanks for explaining the history of inheritance laws that forms a backdrop here, and interesting to know that La Signora had a real-life model.
What a fresh (and impartial) way to describe adolescence! " ... that critical age when a sort of mysterious power seems to inhabit the spirit and enhances, adorns, and strengthens every inclination, every idea, sometimes transforming or steering them down an unexpected path."
I've only just come across this read along project today - I studied The Betrothed at university in the early 2000s and rarely thought of it again until 2020, when I thought of it a lot! I'm going to do my best to catch up and participate, as I'd love to be able to discuss it with others!
Me too. I joined a week ago and am now up to this chapter. I'm still reading these posts as I reach each chapter, so if you have things you want to share, at least one other will see them and we could have a 2-person discussion about some topics. I find both her and her father's characters very well drawn, her father is very scary. How she ends up forced to acquiesce to his will, is tragic and causes more disaster for herself, Lucia (and others, which you already know if you read the book before too).
Amazing backstory in today's reading. I have to admit I was unsure if I wanted to leave the main flow of the story at first, but it was well worth it in the end. Manzoni writes psychological coercion and confusion very well. I imagine his political commentary on issues of his day was brilliant.
The compassion elicited by this chapter is one of outrange over the psychological coercion to which Gertrude was subjected by her father and his complicit subjects. (Sadness as well.)
I was taken with the extremes, both the entitlement and attention on the front end and the torturous cruelty on the other.
While “the background of this unhappy woman” elicits sympathy for la Signora, narrator offers details of a dark side, that she is not a kind, loving nun. In yesterday’s reading, there were the sudden glimpses of a “deep and long-repressed hatred, something vaguely menacing and cruel,” as well as the “aura of strangeness” she emanates. I don’t think this bodes well for shy and innocent Lucia. Another layer to this unfolding story.
And the story of the real -life nun she is based on, la monaca di Monza, is fascinating!
I have no idea what's coming but these shadows of the "dark side" are certainly what makes la Signora interesting!
"But religion, as the poor girl had been taught and understood it to mean, did not prohibit pride. On the contrary, it sanctified it, and proposed it as a means to attain earthly happiness." Love the juxtaposition to Fra Christoforo's faith and the nuance with which Manzoni is examining religion. I wonder: Did his portrayal of Signora's faith ever elicit criticism or cries of heretic?
The official organ of the Vatican, the Osservatore Romano, was initially critical of the novel.
i was wondering that. lines like "...religion thus became just one of her fantasies..." akin to how i think about my catholic school / presbyterian upbringing. how else can religion make sense other than as a fable/allergory/tall tale in my opinion.
yesterday ended on a moment of irony as the Guardian took pride in what he thought was his management of the nun, but which was really her own measurement of her behavior in his presence. So acute!
And then, once again, the amazing detail of the movements in "these deplorable little wars with herself" -- and the strangely parallel dramas of Lucia's and Gertrude's refusals -- both based on being true to herself in the face of patriarchal pressure -- and Gertrude's torment over capitulation.
The way this is so minutely rendered, and yet in such a small space, makes me contemplate what we lose in modern and contemporary overhasty psychological generalizing and categorizing and labeling -- so much nuance and individuality. Loving this read!
I’m loving this read as well. Wondering what you mean by “modern and contemporary overhasty psychological generalizing and categorizing and labeling”? And can you give an example?
my first thought was all the way back to Freud -- just the reducing of any complex details of character and situation to some cookie-cutter abstract theory (of any kind, even those I agree with as theories) -- so I think sometimes there's a mental shorthand that sums someone up (in real life or in fiction or drama etc.) without engaging with the subtle complications the way this novel does -- also in War and Peace and Moby Dick etc. -- and sorry, I'm being general, not coming up with an exact example -- but what's coming up is Rebecca Solnit's essay on categories in "The Mother of All Questions" -- I don't remember its title though
maybe like letting a product brand or a hairstyle stand for a personality? or any obvious (and oblivious) stereotype?
also remembering recently as we read Villette, the tendency to diagnose Lucy as depressed ... and maybe she was but to say this doesn't exhaust or explain her character, and sometimes a diagnosis is given as if that exhausts all there is to say about a character (or a living person)
Villette is a great novel. I have read and like all of Charlotte Brontë's work.
Catherine Gammon, I so agree about the way we use psychological labels today.
The detail and care given to the motivations and experiences of each character makes this novel a psychological exploration as much as it is historical fiction, social commentary, and political philosophy: It is so many things!
"That she could, if she had wanted to, if should would like to, if she did indeed want to. This was, in fact, what she wanted" (...che lo poteva, pur che l'avesse voluto, che lo vorrebbe, che lo voleva; e lo voleva in fatti.) So beautifully translated here, with it's echoing refrain of the verb "volere", reminds us that Gertrude has no power to pursue her own desires and despite her social status, has been denied self-determination. This in contrast to the peasant, Lucia, whose journey toward her own desires is at the center of the novel.
I somewhat expected to feel sympathy for the Signora upon hearing her backstory. Yet I don’t. Unlike Cristoforo and Lucia, the Signora currently seems to have ulterior motives (and, in the past, seems to have learned to manipulate in the style of her manipulators).
But who knows…could turn out that Lucia is the ultimate villain with the twists and turns this story is taking!
In the scenes with Gertrude and her father, mother, brother I kept waiting for some cue or eye contact or bit of sympathy from her mother. There’s the need to dispose of her but also to keep her away from men? No sex or marriage or children. Which makes me wonder in what subversive ways G will leave her mark. I felt like I was going through these twists and turns and near-exits with her. This writing! To think I might never have read this novel!
Lots in today's reading evokes the question of free will. La Signora rejects the future her family has planned for her, to be a num. Then once it becomes her own decision, she is reconciled to it. But was it really her decision? Is any of us truly free?
I was struck how early on in this reading la Signora's tale seemed post-enlightenment, post-Napoleon. The fact her family would consign her to being a nun is taken as a given as a bad fate. Yet, at the end, she's reconciled to it. I have a feeling this may turn out to be the path that fulfills her.
I am fascinated by La Signora's backstory. I had no idea that Manzoni would be so deeply, cannily, empathically psychological. (I had no idea about anything! I jumped into this read-along simply because I had read that The Betrothed was THE touchstone Italian novel. I am so happy to be discovering it, 15 pages at a time.) Thanks for explaining the history of inheritance laws that forms a backdrop here, and interesting to know that La Signora had a real-life model.
What a fresh (and impartial) way to describe adolescence! " ... that critical age when a sort of mysterious power seems to inhabit the spirit and enhances, adorns, and strengthens every inclination, every idea, sometimes transforming or steering them down an unexpected path."
I've only just come across this read along project today - I studied The Betrothed at university in the early 2000s and rarely thought of it again until 2020, when I thought of it a lot! I'm going to do my best to catch up and participate, as I'd love to be able to discuss it with others!
Me too. I joined a week ago and am now up to this chapter. I'm still reading these posts as I reach each chapter, so if you have things you want to share, at least one other will see them and we could have a 2-person discussion about some topics. I find both her and her father's characters very well drawn, her father is very scary. How she ends up forced to acquiesce to his will, is tragic and causes more disaster for herself, Lucia (and others, which you already know if you read the book before too).