Loved your reference to Don Carlo. Filippo’s lament at the beginning of Act 3 is one of the saddest and most moving arias in all of opera. And Verdi loved Manzoni, to whose memory he dedicated his Requiem.
"as a mere concession to unarmed prayers" delighted me, especially on re-reading and discovering the double meaning: prayers as things offered and prayers as those who pray.
All these observations about powerful men struck me today and the gender specificity never crossed my mind vs the old way of reading "man" as an ungendered universal. What did cross my mind, again, was that the behavior of certain types of powerful men apparently hasn't changed over the centuries -- from "for a powerful man to desist from an act of aggression without being forced to, as a mere concession to unarmed prayers, was not only rare but unheard of" through "If a powerful man intent on committing an injustice always had to explain why, the world would be a different place" to the especially timely beauty quoted above by Michael Moore, all could be said of the despots of today.
I'm also noting that these claims about powerful men are carefully qualified -- not statements made as universals about all powerful men, but about a powerful man "committing an act of aggression," a powerful man "intent on committing an injustice," and finally "a powerful and evil man" -- each utterly specific in ways that could be true of any powerful person, whatever the gender.
“When two strong passions clash in a man’s heart, no one, not even the heart’s owner, can clearly distinguish one from the other, and say with certainty which of the two will prevail.”
Is this really what happens inside us when making choices? I've been having interesting conversations with my high school and college aged children about whether there is such a thing as free will.
it's hard to tell how devout and pious Lucia and Renzo and L's mom are. to me, their god seems clearly powerless but a kind of witness who could tattle on you or demand some show of trivial respect. certainly, no match for don or fra.
Father Cristoforo wants to let Renzo know “what’s happened”, and asks Renzo to “send someone you can trust, some sensible lad“ Shook my head when I read that and thought that this could not be good.
The always reliable (prospective) mother-in-law, Agnese declares, “I’ll send Menico“ (who, after all, is “particularly good at the game of ducks and drakes”; throwing flat stones across water so as to make them bounce off the surface; skipping rocks ) What could possibly go wrong? I’m holding my breath.
Feb 28, 2023·edited Feb 28, 2023Liked by A Public Space
I was impressed by how well Manzoni described the difficulty of getting people (moral agents) to admit to their ultimate aims. And the more powerful they are, the more they are able to hide their aims in plain sight.
“The utterances of a powerful and evil man are both piercing and elusive. He’ll fret and fume at your suspicions of him at the same time as he confirms them. He’ll insult you and say he’s offended, ridicule you and consult your opinion, terrify and whine, be rude and irreproachable.” — Sounds like some “leaders” we’ve come to know in recent years. I’m continually surprised by how contemporary this novel feels.
So much fun to be had here relating to these characters, their sorrows and fights, their souls, evil, pure, or in between, their pleasures, experiencing the dilemmas that haunt human life with them. Isn't this the best part of reading older works, feeling them alive and relevant as anything going on today and that anyone of the characters could, and do, live in your neighborhood?
"Was [Renzo] putting on an act to increase [Lucia's fear], to exploit it. Our author claims the he doesn't know..." We touched on this briefly at the start, but I'm still not sure I understand why Manzoni layered the narration in this way. There's the narrative, the author of the narrative, and the omniscient narrator (Manzoni himself?). No spoilers, but are these layers necessary for the plot or are they stylistic? If the latter, what do they lend to the novel?
Lots to contemplate. By relating a ‘discovered’ manuscript the narrative gains weight - someone in the past immortalized it. It also allows the author to leapfrog into the past and it aides the satiric commentary by using the past to comment on the present and the omniscient narrator to present ‘universal truths’
Chandler, S. Bernard. “The Author, the Material, and the Reader in ‘I Promessi Sposi.’” Annali d’Italianistica 3 (1985): 123–34. http://www.jstor.org/stable/24004396.
I keep hoping we will learn more about the mysterious author of the manuscript...but it feels to me more like a superficial framing device than crucial plot element
It is a framing device, but I wouldn't call it superficial. Manzoni is deeply interested in history and historiography, and uses the novel -- as he did the two tragedies he wrote -- as a vehicle to explore Italian history. This will become very apparent in Chapter 31. The novel mixes fiction and non-fiction, and the non-fiction is always thoroughly researched. Accordingly, he has to give a "source" for the fiction, and this source is the imaginary manuscript.
“Time belongs to Him, and He has promised us eternity! Place this matter in His hands, Renzo, and you should know…all of you should know that I’ve found a thread to help you. That’s all I can say for now.” (Fra Cristoforo) If Renzo and Lucia were to heed this advice, there would be no novel. I suspect we will watch them struggle with their destinies first before giving them up to God!
Did Charles I truly "buy" the "art"? If it's truly art, then at what price could they possibly go for...It's interesting to learn how Europeans (as the Brits still are, in my book) plunder other Europeans. Extraction and exploitation happen everywhere, not just in so-called "under-developed countries". Developed according to whom? Misprisions all over the place.
Loved your reference to Don Carlo. Filippo’s lament at the beginning of Act 3 is one of the saddest and most moving arias in all of opera. And Verdi loved Manzoni, to whose memory he dedicated his Requiem.
"as a mere concession to unarmed prayers" delighted me, especially on re-reading and discovering the double meaning: prayers as things offered and prayers as those who pray.
All these observations about powerful men struck me today and the gender specificity never crossed my mind vs the old way of reading "man" as an ungendered universal. What did cross my mind, again, was that the behavior of certain types of powerful men apparently hasn't changed over the centuries -- from "for a powerful man to desist from an act of aggression without being forced to, as a mere concession to unarmed prayers, was not only rare but unheard of" through "If a powerful man intent on committing an injustice always had to explain why, the world would be a different place" to the especially timely beauty quoted above by Michael Moore, all could be said of the despots of today.
I'm also noting that these claims about powerful men are carefully qualified -- not statements made as universals about all powerful men, but about a powerful man "committing an act of aggression," a powerful man "intent on committing an injustice," and finally "a powerful and evil man" -- each utterly specific in ways that could be true of any powerful person, whatever the gender.
“When two strong passions clash in a man’s heart, no one, not even the heart’s owner, can clearly distinguish one from the other, and say with certainty which of the two will prevail.”
Is this really what happens inside us when making choices? I've been having interesting conversations with my high school and college aged children about whether there is such a thing as free will.
The question will forever bedevil humans, in our judiciary system as well as mundane life. Just today, this is Ezra Klein's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ezra-klein-show/id1548604447?i=1000602038480
it's hard to tell how devout and pious Lucia and Renzo and L's mom are. to me, their god seems clearly powerless but a kind of witness who could tattle on you or demand some show of trivial respect. certainly, no match for don or fra.
Concur. This novel seems to me an exploration of religious and theological nuance.
i also love how when i try to guess how a particular character will behave, i'm wrong and pleasantly surprised. cf. renzo locking in the fra.
Father Cristoforo wants to let Renzo know “what’s happened”, and asks Renzo to “send someone you can trust, some sensible lad“ Shook my head when I read that and thought that this could not be good.
The always reliable (prospective) mother-in-law, Agnese declares, “I’ll send Menico“ (who, after all, is “particularly good at the game of ducks and drakes”; throwing flat stones across water so as to make them bounce off the surface; skipping rocks ) What could possibly go wrong? I’m holding my breath.
I’ve felt a lot of “What could possibly go wrong?” moments already!
R and L's future rests in the hands of a twelve year old and an idiot. Not boding well...
Idiot? Maybe a bit distracted. Maybe just 12. I love how well Agnese knows him.
Oh...I meant witness number 2, the "idiot" brother (his words not mine - no judgment!)
I was impressed by how well Manzoni described the difficulty of getting people (moral agents) to admit to their ultimate aims. And the more powerful they are, the more they are able to hide their aims in plain sight.
“The utterances of a powerful and evil man are both piercing and elusive. He’ll fret and fume at your suspicions of him at the same time as he confirms them. He’ll insult you and say he’s offended, ridicule you and consult your opinion, terrify and whine, be rude and irreproachable.” — Sounds like some “leaders” we’ve come to know in recent years. I’m continually surprised by how contemporary this novel feels.
So much fun to be had here relating to these characters, their sorrows and fights, their souls, evil, pure, or in between, their pleasures, experiencing the dilemmas that haunt human life with them. Isn't this the best part of reading older works, feeling them alive and relevant as anything going on today and that anyone of the characters could, and do, live in your neighborhood?
"Was [Renzo] putting on an act to increase [Lucia's fear], to exploit it. Our author claims the he doesn't know..." We touched on this briefly at the start, but I'm still not sure I understand why Manzoni layered the narration in this way. There's the narrative, the author of the narrative, and the omniscient narrator (Manzoni himself?). No spoilers, but are these layers necessary for the plot or are they stylistic? If the latter, what do they lend to the novel?
Lots to contemplate. By relating a ‘discovered’ manuscript the narrative gains weight - someone in the past immortalized it. It also allows the author to leapfrog into the past and it aides the satiric commentary by using the past to comment on the present and the omniscient narrator to present ‘universal truths’
Chandler, S. Bernard. “The Author, the Material, and the Reader in ‘I Promessi Sposi.’” Annali d’Italianistica 3 (1985): 123–34. http://www.jstor.org/stable/24004396.
This article looks interesting. Preview available here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24004396
I keep hoping we will learn more about the mysterious author of the manuscript...but it feels to me more like a superficial framing device than crucial plot element
It is a framing device, but I wouldn't call it superficial. Manzoni is deeply interested in history and historiography, and uses the novel -- as he did the two tragedies he wrote -- as a vehicle to explore Italian history. This will become very apparent in Chapter 31. The novel mixes fiction and non-fiction, and the non-fiction is always thoroughly researched. Accordingly, he has to give a "source" for the fiction, and this source is the imaginary manuscript.
Thank you! What a gift it is to have you reading along with us!
“Time belongs to Him, and He has promised us eternity! Place this matter in His hands, Renzo, and you should know…all of you should know that I’ve found a thread to help you. That’s all I can say for now.” (Fra Cristoforo) If Renzo and Lucia were to heed this advice, there would be no novel. I suspect we will watch them struggle with their destinies first before giving them up to God!
Did Charles I truly "buy" the "art"? If it's truly art, then at what price could they possibly go for...It's interesting to learn how Europeans (as the Brits still are, in my book) plunder other Europeans. Extraction and exploitation happen everywhere, not just in so-called "under-developed countries". Developed according to whom? Misprisions all over the place.