I love Shirley’s garlic metaphor, and no, I don’t think those 5 symbols are overused at all, and yes, it is a very powerful technique. I think the one thing people have mentioned that has been overused is is the quote “Journeys end in lovers meeting,” and I tend to agree.
As to your next questions, I see it as both/and. The line between the house taking over Eleanor’s mind, and Eleanor losing touch with reality and her mental state infusing the house has completely blurred by this point. They are, in effect, feeding off of one another. Although my interpretation is that HH did initially target her for this eventuality because of her insecurities and vulnerabilities.
A few other things struck me:
As we saw the symbols of doubles, and words repeated twice throughout the book up to this point, in this section, I kept seeing words and phrases repeated 3 times:
“Mother,” “Somewhere,” “Here I am,”(also echoing what she thought when she first arrived) and “I am home.”
I’m also wondering if she was waltzing when she danced? 1,2,3, 1,2,3….
Another image that I kept seeing was that of a circle:
“Dancing in circles” (Back to that “Red Shoes” reference!)
The “circle dance” song again;
The spiral staircase;
The shape of the tower;
And the “circling back” to the past and back in several ways. -
As for the plot, I was thoroughly creeped out by how, from the beginning, E. is in a trance-like state, and by the time she gets to the spiral staircase, I’m not even sure if her feet are completely touching the ground or if she is floating, especially when dancing with Hugh Crain’s ghost; she feels sorry for the others because they are so “heavy.” (Funny use of adverb “gravely” when she dances for Crain.)
As I said in an earlier post, I’m wondering if the spirit of HH is the deceased first wife of Hugh Crain’s, and she has now inhabited E’s body?
Or maybe it’s Hugh himself, and he is looking for a vulnerable female he can drive insane, seduce, and carry on with him in his Hell House?
At one point, E. thinks to herself that “Time has ended” and then tries to remember how she knows the people at the bottom of the spiral staircase, going back in time to an inn, and someone riding a hill with banners flying. So maybe we’re looking back 80 years at the beginning of HH at this point, which would have been 1870’s?
Having E. knock on all the doors as the ghostly spirit herself this time was brilliant, and completes the circle of the hold HH now has on her.
Interesting that it’s when she finally recognizes T’s Face that she decides to come down the staircase with L. I was surprised at how callous they all were with her. I expected it of Mrs. M., but not the others. Dr. M. and Luke actually called her an “imbecile.” I just find this so hard to believe. Hmmm.
Finally, I just happened to notice that the first thing E. thinks she hears her mother say is “Come along” to her. —“Come Along with Me” is the title of SJ’s final, unfinished book she was working on before she died. Could just be a coincidence…. (But does make me sad)
Eleanor’s palpable sense of alienation – from all people – seems elevated by their apparent togetherness: “They were coming down all together, anxious, calling, “Eleanor? Nell?” / They were moving purposefully, all together, straining to stay near one another / they ran all together … looking and calling," leaving her to seek a space of chosen “aloneness” in Hill House, which she imagines protecting from all “rough” outsiders “trampling,” “poking,” “peering,” and their “slow” “deaf” “heav[iness].”
Nature reappears in its vast “aloneness” (in contrast to the “all together[ness]” of the house “guests”?) providing Eleanor with a soothing vision (and sense of purpose?): “[T]he little mists of Hill House curling around her ankles, [Eleanor] looked up at the pressing, heavy hills. Gathered comfortably into the hills, she thought, protected and warm, Hill House is lucky.”
Eleanor and Hill House seems to be mutually constitutive or “feeding off each other” (as Lisa M. notes): “Here I am … Here I am inside. It is not cold but deliciously, fondly warm. / … the stone floor moved caressingly … the soft air touched her, stirring her hair, drifting against her fingers, coming in a light breath against her mouth, and she danced in circles. / No stone lions for me … no oleanders; I have broken the spell of Hill House … / I am home … I am home, I am home.”
The callous reaction of Luke in particular reminds me that he is the heir of HH. Of course, we can understand his frustration at Eleanor as his safety is also at risk when rescuing her but it also reminds me of Hugh Crain’s scrapbook that was designed to save his young daughter from Hell through images so disturbing that no-one could articulate what they saw. A punitive patriarchy. Has the unwholesome atmosphere of the library tainted Luke or merely revealed what is already there?
The mother relationship – the tenderness and torment of it - continues to haunt me. Is Eleanor seeking to be reunited with her mother, in another world? To reconcile her sense of guilt, her self-blame for not hearing her last call?: “Mother?” she said softly, and then again, “Mother?” A little soft laugh floated down to her, and she ran, breathless, up the stairs … and looked at the closed doors.”/ “You’re here somewhere” / “… the little echo … slipping in a whisper on the tiny currents of air, said, ‘Somewhere … Somewhere.’” Or is Eleanor’s haunting guilt, her breaking point, driving her to claim “home” within – and control over - a place that others will ultimately abandon? No more “magic oleanders,” nor “stone lions” for Eleanor. Does abandonment of the world, even an imagined world, becomes “home” for Eleanor? I weep for her.
For me the repetition of Eleanor's original fantasy of a home with the stone lions, cup of stars, etc. is worthwhile because it reminds us just how far she has fallen. She initially seemed to have agency and hope with the fantasy of a normal independent life. Now her fantasy is that she belongs to a haunted house which of course is crazy. Our need to dream or fantasize is important for motivation and hope and it may even allow us temporarily to escape an unpleasant situation. Then there is the fantasy that is corrupted and allows us to slip into insanity. A fantasy that takes over our brain and doesn't let go. Maybe her insanity occurred because she realizes that she is never going to be accepted out in the world and she'll never have that life she envisioned on her drive to HH.
Ruth, thank you for adding the info on the "garlic" and about the recurring 5 images. Interesting that it's an odd number, like the repetition of words that Lisa notes, plus put me in mind of the 5 points of a pentagram, or a pentacle in tarot.
Ruth, I do think it's possible that Theo does care about Eleanor and that she's been unkind and manipulative, just as she was in engineering the fight w her "friend" in order to launch herself to Hill House. Theo was in the drama club at school, I think. I think Hill House has been nudging everyone, but Eleanor is the least defended. Luke and Theo are both indulging their worse selves in pushing Eleanor's buttons moving her further into the thrall of HH.
Regarding the symbols associated with a character - and the five with Eleanor - it felt promising to me early on in the novel. Yet I feel a kind of limitation as I approach the ending. I need to read the last pages before forming a final view but at this moment in time, I would say the best part of the novel for me has been Eleanor's journey to get to Hill House. And what has happened since has been inherently less interesting and less promising. I'm sure others will disagree and I look forward to reading comments!
I thought this little bit fascinating: "The scarf Theodora had been wearing lay across the back of her chair; I can take care of THAT, too, Eleanor thought, her maid's pathetic finery, and put one end of it between her teeth and pulled, tearing, and then dropped it..."
I felt a strong echo of the scene in Jane Eyre in which Bertha/Antoinetta rips the bridal veil in front of Jane. And Eleanor is tipping into madness despite warnings just as Antoinetta was in Jean Rhys's Wide Sargasso Sea.
Also, the scarf is Eleanor's, right? Who is the maid, who is the her, and why is it pathetic finery?
Sorry if this is a duplicate: i think lukes response to E is reasonable if he still oerceives her as attn seeking and self indulgent. Theo on the otherhand is able to intuit Es real danger either fm disintegration or true identification with the house
The symbols technique really is powerful, although rather than a symbol, I might call them memories. For example, the tower is a symbol that carries the same meaning across different texts and Tarot decks. As the doctor says, in a house that has a tower, the companion could hardly be rumored to have hung herself anywhere else. But the oleanders, etc are specific to Eleanor: they call back to earlier parts of the story, which had to be established firmly enough for the reader to remember them when they return. They’re Eleanor’s personal memories.
As for Theodora, I do think she cares about Eleanor in her way, but she strikes me as a bit defensive. She tempers her emotional closeness with little barbs that give her a safe distance. Eleanor is so vulnerable and traumatized that she has no tolerance for that.
I was furious at Mrs. Montague this entire chapter. When Eleanor is just an apparition knocking at her door, she's kind and welcoming--but the moment she's a real, living person, Mrs. Montague writes her off entirely and scolds her (as do the others, but they, at least, care about Eleanor and want her down and safe).
She says, "I am here to /help/ these unfortunate beings--I am here to extend the hand of heartfelt fondness and let them know that there are still /some/ who remember, who will listen and weep for them; their loneliness is over" (pg. 185 in the Penguin edition; part 4 of chapter 7). How much good would those sentiments do for Eleanor? At least, if they had been given before--it feels too late now.
“She had awakened with the thought of going down to the library, and her mind had supplied her with a reason: I cannot sleep, she explained to herself, and so I am going downstairs to get a book…” Hmm. This implies something else, besides Eleanor’s mind, is operating here, and her mind is providing the veneer to make it acceptable, reasonable, actionable?
“It was warm, drowsily, luxuriously warm.” The spirits have heretofore announced themselves with cold, but when Eleanor is held by the presence outside and now in the house itself, there is no cold, only warmth. Even the cold spot at the nursery threshold is gone.
When Theodora raises the alarm, Eleanor has a strange reaction I have trouble unpacking. “Poor house, Eleanor thought, I had forgotten Eleanor.” In this case, she isn’t Eleanor, nor has she merged with the house. She seems to be identifying with something that inhabits the house, feels bad for it, and forgot about the existence of Eleanor, whom the others will now seek.
She is still not “allowed” in the library, or “to touch even the outside” until the others force her in there with their pursuit. And then she thinks, “I am home” and “Time is ended.” I wonder what would have happened had the others not found her, broken the spell (making her afraid when she wasn’t before), and brought her down literally and figuratively. They are patient enough (in their terror), but the men can’t summon any tenderness for her afterwards. Theo seems bemused but has some understanding (“I suppose you had to do it, Nell?”). That stone floor, which at first “moved caressingly, rubbing itself against the soles of her feet,” must feel cold indeed at the end of this section, when she remembers and offers her mind’s feeble excuse.
I love Shirley’s garlic metaphor, and no, I don’t think those 5 symbols are overused at all, and yes, it is a very powerful technique. I think the one thing people have mentioned that has been overused is is the quote “Journeys end in lovers meeting,” and I tend to agree.
As to your next questions, I see it as both/and. The line between the house taking over Eleanor’s mind, and Eleanor losing touch with reality and her mental state infusing the house has completely blurred by this point. They are, in effect, feeding off of one another. Although my interpretation is that HH did initially target her for this eventuality because of her insecurities and vulnerabilities.
A few other things struck me:
As we saw the symbols of doubles, and words repeated twice throughout the book up to this point, in this section, I kept seeing words and phrases repeated 3 times:
“Mother,” “Somewhere,” “Here I am,”(also echoing what she thought when she first arrived) and “I am home.”
I’m also wondering if she was waltzing when she danced? 1,2,3, 1,2,3….
Another image that I kept seeing was that of a circle:
“Dancing in circles” (Back to that “Red Shoes” reference!)
The “circle dance” song again;
The spiral staircase;
The shape of the tower;
And the “circling back” to the past and back in several ways. -
As for the plot, I was thoroughly creeped out by how, from the beginning, E. is in a trance-like state, and by the time she gets to the spiral staircase, I’m not even sure if her feet are completely touching the ground or if she is floating, especially when dancing with Hugh Crain’s ghost; she feels sorry for the others because they are so “heavy.” (Funny use of adverb “gravely” when she dances for Crain.)
As I said in an earlier post, I’m wondering if the spirit of HH is the deceased first wife of Hugh Crain’s, and she has now inhabited E’s body?
Or maybe it’s Hugh himself, and he is looking for a vulnerable female he can drive insane, seduce, and carry on with him in his Hell House?
At one point, E. thinks to herself that “Time has ended” and then tries to remember how she knows the people at the bottom of the spiral staircase, going back in time to an inn, and someone riding a hill with banners flying. So maybe we’re looking back 80 years at the beginning of HH at this point, which would have been 1870’s?
Having E. knock on all the doors as the ghostly spirit herself this time was brilliant, and completes the circle of the hold HH now has on her.
Interesting that it’s when she finally recognizes T’s Face that she decides to come down the staircase with L. I was surprised at how callous they all were with her. I expected it of Mrs. M., but not the others. Dr. M. and Luke actually called her an “imbecile.” I just find this so hard to believe. Hmmm.
Finally, I just happened to notice that the first thing E. thinks she hears her mother say is “Come along” to her. —“Come Along with Me” is the title of SJ’s final, unfinished book she was working on before she died. Could just be a coincidence…. (But does make me sad)
Eleanor’s palpable sense of alienation – from all people – seems elevated by their apparent togetherness: “They were coming down all together, anxious, calling, “Eleanor? Nell?” / They were moving purposefully, all together, straining to stay near one another / they ran all together … looking and calling," leaving her to seek a space of chosen “aloneness” in Hill House, which she imagines protecting from all “rough” outsiders “trampling,” “poking,” “peering,” and their “slow” “deaf” “heav[iness].”
Nature reappears in its vast “aloneness” (in contrast to the “all together[ness]” of the house “guests”?) providing Eleanor with a soothing vision (and sense of purpose?): “[T]he little mists of Hill House curling around her ankles, [Eleanor] looked up at the pressing, heavy hills. Gathered comfortably into the hills, she thought, protected and warm, Hill House is lucky.”
Eleanor and Hill House seems to be mutually constitutive or “feeding off each other” (as Lisa M. notes): “Here I am … Here I am inside. It is not cold but deliciously, fondly warm. / … the stone floor moved caressingly … the soft air touched her, stirring her hair, drifting against her fingers, coming in a light breath against her mouth, and she danced in circles. / No stone lions for me … no oleanders; I have broken the spell of Hill House … / I am home … I am home, I am home.”
The callous reaction of Luke in particular reminds me that he is the heir of HH. Of course, we can understand his frustration at Eleanor as his safety is also at risk when rescuing her but it also reminds me of Hugh Crain’s scrapbook that was designed to save his young daughter from Hell through images so disturbing that no-one could articulate what they saw. A punitive patriarchy. Has the unwholesome atmosphere of the library tainted Luke or merely revealed what is already there?
It's a great technique and one I think I'll be borrowing at some point.
Theodora definitely seemed genuinely frightened of what could have happened. And Luke's bravery, is at odds with how he's been portrayed so far.
I do wish the Dr would stand up to his wife, my dislike for her is so strong that I almost can't bear reading the sections she is in ⚠️😂🤷
The mother relationship – the tenderness and torment of it - continues to haunt me. Is Eleanor seeking to be reunited with her mother, in another world? To reconcile her sense of guilt, her self-blame for not hearing her last call?: “Mother?” she said softly, and then again, “Mother?” A little soft laugh floated down to her, and she ran, breathless, up the stairs … and looked at the closed doors.”/ “You’re here somewhere” / “… the little echo … slipping in a whisper on the tiny currents of air, said, ‘Somewhere … Somewhere.’” Or is Eleanor’s haunting guilt, her breaking point, driving her to claim “home” within – and control over - a place that others will ultimately abandon? No more “magic oleanders,” nor “stone lions” for Eleanor. Does abandonment of the world, even an imagined world, becomes “home” for Eleanor? I weep for her.
For me the repetition of Eleanor's original fantasy of a home with the stone lions, cup of stars, etc. is worthwhile because it reminds us just how far she has fallen. She initially seemed to have agency and hope with the fantasy of a normal independent life. Now her fantasy is that she belongs to a haunted house which of course is crazy. Our need to dream or fantasize is important for motivation and hope and it may even allow us temporarily to escape an unpleasant situation. Then there is the fantasy that is corrupted and allows us to slip into insanity. A fantasy that takes over our brain and doesn't let go. Maybe her insanity occurred because she realizes that she is never going to be accepted out in the world and she'll never have that life she envisioned on her drive to HH.
Ruth, thank you for adding the info on the "garlic" and about the recurring 5 images. Interesting that it's an odd number, like the repetition of words that Lisa notes, plus put me in mind of the 5 points of a pentagram, or a pentacle in tarot.
Ruth, I do think it's possible that Theo does care about Eleanor and that she's been unkind and manipulative, just as she was in engineering the fight w her "friend" in order to launch herself to Hill House. Theo was in the drama club at school, I think. I think Hill House has been nudging everyone, but Eleanor is the least defended. Luke and Theo are both indulging their worse selves in pushing Eleanor's buttons moving her further into the thrall of HH.
Regarding the symbols associated with a character - and the five with Eleanor - it felt promising to me early on in the novel. Yet I feel a kind of limitation as I approach the ending. I need to read the last pages before forming a final view but at this moment in time, I would say the best part of the novel for me has been Eleanor's journey to get to Hill House. And what has happened since has been inherently less interesting and less promising. I'm sure others will disagree and I look forward to reading comments!
I thought this little bit fascinating: "The scarf Theodora had been wearing lay across the back of her chair; I can take care of THAT, too, Eleanor thought, her maid's pathetic finery, and put one end of it between her teeth and pulled, tearing, and then dropped it..."
I felt a strong echo of the scene in Jane Eyre in which Bertha/Antoinetta rips the bridal veil in front of Jane. And Eleanor is tipping into madness despite warnings just as Antoinetta was in Jean Rhys's Wide Sargasso Sea.
Also, the scarf is Eleanor's, right? Who is the maid, who is the her, and why is it pathetic finery?
Sorry if this is a duplicate: i think lukes response to E is reasonable if he still oerceives her as attn seeking and self indulgent. Theo on the otherhand is able to intuit Es real danger either fm disintegration or true identification with the house
The symbols technique really is powerful, although rather than a symbol, I might call them memories. For example, the tower is a symbol that carries the same meaning across different texts and Tarot decks. As the doctor says, in a house that has a tower, the companion could hardly be rumored to have hung herself anywhere else. But the oleanders, etc are specific to Eleanor: they call back to earlier parts of the story, which had to be established firmly enough for the reader to remember them when they return. They’re Eleanor’s personal memories.
As for Theodora, I do think she cares about Eleanor in her way, but she strikes me as a bit defensive. She tempers her emotional closeness with little barbs that give her a safe distance. Eleanor is so vulnerable and traumatized that she has no tolerance for that.
I was furious at Mrs. Montague this entire chapter. When Eleanor is just an apparition knocking at her door, she's kind and welcoming--but the moment she's a real, living person, Mrs. Montague writes her off entirely and scolds her (as do the others, but they, at least, care about Eleanor and want her down and safe).
She says, "I am here to /help/ these unfortunate beings--I am here to extend the hand of heartfelt fondness and let them know that there are still /some/ who remember, who will listen and weep for them; their loneliness is over" (pg. 185 in the Penguin edition; part 4 of chapter 7). How much good would those sentiments do for Eleanor? At least, if they had been given before--it feels too late now.
“She had awakened with the thought of going down to the library, and her mind had supplied her with a reason: I cannot sleep, she explained to herself, and so I am going downstairs to get a book…” Hmm. This implies something else, besides Eleanor’s mind, is operating here, and her mind is providing the veneer to make it acceptable, reasonable, actionable?
“It was warm, drowsily, luxuriously warm.” The spirits have heretofore announced themselves with cold, but when Eleanor is held by the presence outside and now in the house itself, there is no cold, only warmth. Even the cold spot at the nursery threshold is gone.
When Theodora raises the alarm, Eleanor has a strange reaction I have trouble unpacking. “Poor house, Eleanor thought, I had forgotten Eleanor.” In this case, she isn’t Eleanor, nor has she merged with the house. She seems to be identifying with something that inhabits the house, feels bad for it, and forgot about the existence of Eleanor, whom the others will now seek.
She is still not “allowed” in the library, or “to touch even the outside” until the others force her in there with their pursuit. And then she thinks, “I am home” and “Time is ended.” I wonder what would have happened had the others not found her, broken the spell (making her afraid when she wasn’t before), and brought her down literally and figuratively. They are patient enough (in their terror), but the men can’t summon any tenderness for her afterwards. Theo seems bemused but has some understanding (“I suppose you had to do it, Nell?”). That stone floor, which at first “moved caressingly, rubbing itself against the soles of her feet,” must feel cold indeed at the end of this section, when she remembers and offers her mind’s feeble excuse.
Does the house become Eleanor or is Eleanor becoming the house? She always wanted a home, and now she is creating one--