In the Iliad the Greeks are depicted as bearded barbarians whereas the Trojans are altogether more advanced and refined. Here, Phaeacia is depicted much like Athens would become, with dazzling architecture and interiors; superb performing arts including drama, songs, poetry, storytelling, dance; Olympic Games, deliberative government, and peerless seafarers. So Odysseus shows up and they are confronted with a kind of backward person compared to them, and they are gracious to him. You also sense the vast time period between the Odyssey's composition and the events that are its inspiration or premise or it purports to depict.
My favorite lines today 248-9 and 252-4: "We love the feast, the lyre, dancing and varied clothes, hot baths and bed.....how excellent we are at seafaring, at running, and at dancing, and song." Such peace, comfort, happiness and hospitality.
If you want a juicy story this Valentine's Day, told in a "charming song", continue reading through line 367.
Lucky Phaeacians. They may be worried that a stranger like Odysseus may come back later and sack them and ruin their peaceful existence, so they lavish him with gifts, and even offer Nausicaa to him before they even know his name.
Loved that story about the invisible chains. Reminded me of that Hank Williams song, "Take these chains from my heart and set me free..." It's tragic in country music, but to the gods it's all just a big laugh!
Indeed, “poems can break hearts”! Appropriate on Valentine’s Day. In this start of Book 8, the blind poet who captures everyone’s attention and grounds them in the larger story made me wonder if this is Homer himself. A glimpse of ancient metafiction? The text felt entirely alive for me as he sat down on his silver-studded chair.
I like the Phaeacians. They like dancing, music, hot baths, and bed! Oh, and nice clothes. They remind me of the Minoans. Maybe they ARE the Minoans? Or at least, influenced by Minoan culture.
The scene of a whole town taking the day off to stage a kind of mini-Olympics, plus a huge feast, plus a dancing competition, plus story-telling and poetry, plus lavish gift-giving, is pretty astounding. Maybe such things in the ancient world were possible, as Hannah Arendt suggests somewhere, only because an army of slaves were doing all the real work, so that the free citizens could mess around like this. It's hard to imagine such a grandiose holiday happening anywhere in America on such short notice. Ok, maybe in New Orleans, but Mardi Gras is planned out at least a year in advance and as far as I know, does not include throwing the discus, only beads. And the Super Bowl does not involve lavish gifts (but does involve feasting, dancing, and costumes).
Maybe we have such holidays, sort of, but we don't do them just because somebody we've never seen comes to town! What if we did?! And I think it wasn't just because of the isolation of the Phaeacians: this hospitality norm seemed widespread in the Greek world. But at the same time they had good reason to greatly fear strangers, because guys like Odysseus were also "sackers of cities." How do they know he was not scouting their location for a raid later?
Or maybe that's why they were so generous? If they offered him princesses and lavish gifts, he would NOT sack their city? Maybe that's why Calypso tried to keep him on her island too: if he was her husband and co-resident, he wouldn't "sack" her island. (Is this an ancient form of "obeying in advance"? That is, ingratiating yourself with a powerful, potentially very destructive man?)
(The Arendt idea about the slavery that subsidized the leisure of free Greeks is in her book The Human Condition.)
I saw a wonderful reimagining of The Odyssey at the A.R.T. in Cambridge, MA last night written (updated) by Kate Hamill. I won’t spoil too much, as I believe it might end up with wider circulation. The women were modernized, Odysseus more vulnerable. But they did a wonderful portrayal of the theme of PTSD and the ravishes of war. In fact, there was a beautiful scene similar to today’s reading when Odysseus spends time with Nausicaa (also a modern woman and a highlight) where scenes of the Trojan War are enacted in contrast to the beauty and culture in her homeland. Another theme: the need to move forward focusing on justice and fairness rather than revenge and the past. I know this is a theme by the famous Greek dramatists later. I’m waiting to see how it plays out in Homer as I refresh my memory of the book.
I feel as if he could have worked out a little on Calypso's island. Maybe he's bluffing, trying to make them think he's not a threat. At any time, the Phaeacians could just kill Odysseus, and it might be in their interest to do so. He surely knows that. But they also know that if they do, his "people" might find out and exact revenge. Both sides have much to lose and something to gain during this encounter: it could turn violent, or it could turn into an alliance.
I hope Stefania Heim will answer a question I’ve always had … whether popular representations of Homer as blind derive from this section of The Odyssey.
"Macho trash-talk" indeed! Love the categorization.
The "classic" "masculine" taunting focused on physical prowess made me cringe a bit: "I have endured the agonies of war/ and struggled through the dangers of the sea [Ah, Odysseus ... the heroic "man" engaged in violence - against both, human and nature's enemies, while suffering for a "patriotic" cause: nation and family?]. But you have challenged me and stung my heart./ Despite my suffering, I will compete."
Of course, how else to resolve a "taunting" but to "[leap] up, cloak and all and [seize] a massive discus, heavier than that used by others." Yup, "macho" something, to be sure.
Sadly, a little too resonant in its continuity over time -- to today's world. Why does fear of the "stranger" and/or fear of diminishing status/power/privilege/relevance have such resonance within contemporary society? If only it were possible to elevate the value of - and embrace - "love [of] the feast, the lyre, dancing and varied clothes, hot baths and bed ... dancing, and song."
Finally caught up. Initially was going to pass as I'm already in a slow-read Substack (Wolf Hall). But the Odyssey is my favorite book and I couldn't let the opportunity to read along with this crowd. I first encountered the story in Spanish comic book form around the time I was 8 years old. As I was sent to live with my aunt and uncle in Mexico for four years (long story), in addition to it being a great story, I felt the longing for home ever so strongly. Later on, the arc of long and challenging endeavors resonated. I decided at 28 to change careers from real estate appraising to medicine. This involved premed classes part-time while working full-time. I have a vivid memory of a Cuban friend, telling me in his thick accent- "brother, you're going on an Odyssey". 42 years later and several re-readings of the book, I retired from Family Medicine practice at the end of December. Back in 1979, I acquired a property in Los Angeles and repaired it prior to enrolling in med school. Another long story is for the past several years preparing for that property's redevelopment- the name of the architectural firm is Telemachus Studio.
Book 8 goes to show that thrash talking in sports is not a new thing.
My son first encountered The Odyssey at around 8-9 too. We had an audio book from a library that we listened to in the car. There may also have been a kids' illustrated version.
I'm only a 3rd of the way along. So, it's opaque at times (lots of characters; would help being familiar with the period-much like reading Homer), snarky/laugh out loud other times and unexpectedly moving as well. A difficult convention is getting used to TC being referred to as "he". I have not seen the series but it is as well thought of as the book.
Long and difficult was in the cards for me; the Oddysey gave me the template to embrace that. BTW, have you read What I Talk About When I Talk About Running?
Footnotes & tangents, Simon Haisell. Need a paid subscription for the really good stuff; so far, worth it as lots of content and, not knowing much about the Tudors and their times, really helps with filling the gaps.
I know this is from yesterday, but I was struck by what a crowd-pleaser Odysseus's words at the end of his recounting his seafarer travels, "Now I have told you the truth, no matter what," must have been to live audiences. Quite a number of oral tradition repetitions, to bring those pesky / lazy listeners back to paying attention, the most obvious 'rosy-fingered dawn' and other variations.
I laughed out loud when I saw Odysseus described as the "city sacker." And the list of unpronounceable Greek names at line 110 reminded me of the list of unpronounceable names of the Israelites in the Bible -- either Genesis or Exodus. And then there's the "holy dance." I wonder what that looked like. One other note: according to Wikipedia, Phaeacia is a place made up by Homer, not a real place. Anyone have information to the contrary?
interesting comments on poets and poetry: blindness is a necessary condition to be able to produce 'sweet song' = imagination & repeating episodes of 'famous actions' remind an audience of the foundation of a form of cultural cohesion that they share. history and fiction braided together.we live in the world they created.
In Ireland, 'sean nós' singers (singers of old stories) usually sing with their eyes closed. Don't we all need darkness to really visualise imaginary worlds? And find the words to describe them?
Alcinous is aware of Odysseus weeping, surely must suspect his identity? Mysterious stranger, no one knows his name...Is Odysseus protecting himself by hiding his identity? Is his host protecting him by playing along?
I thought about that too. I think Alcinous suspects it is Odysseus, and wants to avoid antagonizing him at all costs, given his reputation as a sacker of cities.
So, wow! King Alcinous is actually going to provide Odysseus with a new ship and send off 52 men ("the men selected as the best") to take him home?? I guess I thought Odysseus would be hoping to hitch a ride with one of their ships going elsewhere ... but he's being take home like this? Impressive hospitality!
Mind you, Athena has done her things again and spruced up Odysseus with "unearthly charm" to make him appear "taller and sturdier," "like an immortal god," so as to impress the Phaeacians lords and captains. Maybe it was them who had to "donate" their young men to this cause? They probably wouldn't know if they'd ever see them again! And would the king expect his ship to be returned one day?
Yeah that stood out for me too. Here, we’ll lend you a ship and 52 of our strongest seafaring men. I guess the king really liked him (there was that passing offer that he’d offer his daughter as a bride if Odysseus stayed)
This popped up in my Readwise feed today. It's from "The Dawn of Everything," by Graeber and Wengrow:
"But everywhere we encounter it slavery is also, at first, a domestic institution. Hierarchy and property may derive from notions of the sacred, but the most brutal forms of exploitation have their origins in the most intimate of social relations: as perversions of nurture, love and caring."
I am quoting it because it has to do with people's comments about slavery and caregiving and patriarchy.
In the Iliad the Greeks are depicted as bearded barbarians whereas the Trojans are altogether more advanced and refined. Here, Phaeacia is depicted much like Athens would become, with dazzling architecture and interiors; superb performing arts including drama, songs, poetry, storytelling, dance; Olympic Games, deliberative government, and peerless seafarers. So Odysseus shows up and they are confronted with a kind of backward person compared to them, and they are gracious to him. You also sense the vast time period between the Odyssey's composition and the events that are its inspiration or premise or it purports to depict.
Odysseus hearing himself become immortal through poetry—not quite the glory that one may hope for. It was such a surreal scene.
My favorite lines today 248-9 and 252-4: "We love the feast, the lyre, dancing and varied clothes, hot baths and bed.....how excellent we are at seafaring, at running, and at dancing, and song." Such peace, comfort, happiness and hospitality.
If you want a juicy story this Valentine's Day, told in a "charming song", continue reading through line 367.
Lucky Phaeacians. They may be worried that a stranger like Odysseus may come back later and sack them and ruin their peaceful existence, so they lavish him with gifts, and even offer Nausicaa to him before they even know his name.
I love this story but does anyone have theories how it fits into the themes of the Odyssey?
Loved that story about the invisible chains. Reminded me of that Hank Williams song, "Take these chains from my heart and set me free..." It's tragic in country music, but to the gods it's all just a big laugh!
Ribald raillery … that’s what came to mind as I read about Hermes and Apollo snarking it up.
The ending was kind of anti-climactic for me, though, no pun intended. Business as usual.
Aphrodite seems to skip away, a little embarrassed maybe, but soon soothed and cosseted again.
Indeed, “poems can break hearts”! Appropriate on Valentine’s Day. In this start of Book 8, the blind poet who captures everyone’s attention and grounds them in the larger story made me wonder if this is Homer himself. A glimpse of ancient metafiction? The text felt entirely alive for me as he sat down on his silver-studded chair.
I like the Phaeacians. They like dancing, music, hot baths, and bed! Oh, and nice clothes. They remind me of the Minoans. Maybe they ARE the Minoans? Or at least, influenced by Minoan culture.
The scene of a whole town taking the day off to stage a kind of mini-Olympics, plus a huge feast, plus a dancing competition, plus story-telling and poetry, plus lavish gift-giving, is pretty astounding. Maybe such things in the ancient world were possible, as Hannah Arendt suggests somewhere, only because an army of slaves were doing all the real work, so that the free citizens could mess around like this. It's hard to imagine such a grandiose holiday happening anywhere in America on such short notice. Ok, maybe in New Orleans, but Mardi Gras is planned out at least a year in advance and as far as I know, does not include throwing the discus, only beads. And the Super Bowl does not involve lavish gifts (but does involve feasting, dancing, and costumes).
Maybe we have such holidays, sort of, but we don't do them just because somebody we've never seen comes to town! What if we did?! And I think it wasn't just because of the isolation of the Phaeacians: this hospitality norm seemed widespread in the Greek world. But at the same time they had good reason to greatly fear strangers, because guys like Odysseus were also "sackers of cities." How do they know he was not scouting their location for a raid later?
Or maybe that's why they were so generous? If they offered him princesses and lavish gifts, he would NOT sack their city? Maybe that's why Calypso tried to keep him on her island too: if he was her husband and co-resident, he wouldn't "sack" her island. (Is this an ancient form of "obeying in advance"? That is, ingratiating yourself with a powerful, potentially very destructive man?)
(The Arendt idea about the slavery that subsidized the leisure of free Greeks is in her book The Human Condition.)
Great comment. I don’t know much economic theory, but I recall reading about “gift economies” and wondered whether this was an example.
It still happens. Slavery has been abolished but everywhere manual labor facilitates leisure for others.
Yes, the Minoans. I was thinking about them during this day of largesse. All we needed was a bit of bull-leaping in the games and we’d have them.
I saw a wonderful reimagining of The Odyssey at the A.R.T. in Cambridge, MA last night written (updated) by Kate Hamill. I won’t spoil too much, as I believe it might end up with wider circulation. The women were modernized, Odysseus more vulnerable. But they did a wonderful portrayal of the theme of PTSD and the ravishes of war. In fact, there was a beautiful scene similar to today’s reading when Odysseus spends time with Nausicaa (also a modern woman and a highlight) where scenes of the Trojan War are enacted in contrast to the beauty and culture in her homeland. Another theme: the need to move forward focusing on justice and fairness rather than revenge and the past. I know this is a theme by the famous Greek dramatists later. I’m waiting to see how it plays out in Homer as I refresh my memory of the book.
Odysseus: “…during my time at sea…
I could not do my exercise routine”. Yep, I sprained my ankle and am spending time on the couch. I miss my exercise! But I have the Odyssey to read.
That “exercise routine” was a bit too contemporary for my ear. No Planet Fitness on Calypso’s island.
Yes - somehow Fagles version rings truer [is there such a word?!]:
'I've taken a shameful beating out on heavy seas,
no conditioning there on shipboard day by day.
My legs have lost their spring'.
I feel as if he could have worked out a little on Calypso's island. Maybe he's bluffing, trying to make them think he's not a threat. At any time, the Phaeacians could just kill Odysseus, and it might be in their interest to do so. He surely knows that. But they also know that if they do, his "people" might find out and exact revenge. Both sides have much to lose and something to gain during this encounter: it could turn violent, or it could turn into an alliance.
So many egos! There seems to be a fine line between foolishness and bravery.
Also that "rude" Phaeacian may be trying to figure out if Odysseus is any kind of threat to their island.
Yes, and I think Nausicaa hasn't given up hope that he'll stay and marry her.
I hope Stefania Heim will answer a question I’ve always had … whether popular representations of Homer as blind derive from this section of The Odyssey.
Lines 176-178: "Like you—you look impressive, and a god / could not improve your body. But your mind / is crippled."
Homer invented macho trash-talk? Odysseus might as well have said, "You are pretty and dumb. Get it? Pretty dumb!" (though, not very poetic...)
Fitzgerald instead says that he has "an empty noddle", while Fagles translates it as "the mind inside is worthless."
Love thinking of classical trash talking
Homer also may have invented the survival thriller!
"Macho trash-talk" indeed! Love the categorization.
The "classic" "masculine" taunting focused on physical prowess made me cringe a bit: "I have endured the agonies of war/ and struggled through the dangers of the sea [Ah, Odysseus ... the heroic "man" engaged in violence - against both, human and nature's enemies, while suffering for a "patriotic" cause: nation and family?]. But you have challenged me and stung my heart./ Despite my suffering, I will compete."
Of course, how else to resolve a "taunting" but to "[leap] up, cloak and all and [seize] a massive discus, heavier than that used by others." Yup, "macho" something, to be sure.
Sadly, a little too resonant in its continuity over time -- to today's world. Why does fear of the "stranger" and/or fear of diminishing status/power/privilege/relevance have such resonance within contemporary society? If only it were possible to elevate the value of - and embrace - "love [of] the feast, the lyre, dancing and varied clothes, hot baths and bed ... dancing, and song."
Finally caught up. Initially was going to pass as I'm already in a slow-read Substack (Wolf Hall). But the Odyssey is my favorite book and I couldn't let the opportunity to read along with this crowd. I first encountered the story in Spanish comic book form around the time I was 8 years old. As I was sent to live with my aunt and uncle in Mexico for four years (long story), in addition to it being a great story, I felt the longing for home ever so strongly. Later on, the arc of long and challenging endeavors resonated. I decided at 28 to change careers from real estate appraising to medicine. This involved premed classes part-time while working full-time. I have a vivid memory of a Cuban friend, telling me in his thick accent- "brother, you're going on an Odyssey". 42 years later and several re-readings of the book, I retired from Family Medicine practice at the end of December. Back in 1979, I acquired a property in Los Angeles and repaired it prior to enrolling in med school. Another long story is for the past several years preparing for that property's redevelopment- the name of the architectural firm is Telemachus Studio.
Book 8 goes to show that thrash talking in sports is not a new thing.
My son first encountered The Odyssey at around 8-9 too. We had an audio book from a library that we listened to in the car. There may also have been a kids' illustrated version.
Is the novel as good as the PBS series, which resumes in March? My TBR pile is too tall, but I've considered adding that book to the list.
What is the PBS series?
If you're referring to WH, a BBC series came out in 2015 and is really well thought of.
I'm only a 3rd of the way along. So, it's opaque at times (lots of characters; would help being familiar with the period-much like reading Homer), snarky/laugh out loud other times and unexpectedly moving as well. A difficult convention is getting used to TC being referred to as "he". I have not seen the series but it is as well thought of as the book.
Thank you for sharing details of your own journey. So glad that you decided to join the reading/discussion.
I loved the Wolf Hall trilogy. Your life seems always to circle back to the Odyssey!
Long and difficult was in the cards for me; the Oddysey gave me the template to embrace that. BTW, have you read What I Talk About When I Talk About Running?
Yes. I have read a few Murakami books and I do like running, so it was a nicely combination for me.
What's the slow read Substack you're in? sounds fun to do wolf hall!
Footnotes & tangents, Simon Haisell. Need a paid subscription for the really good stuff; so far, worth it as lots of content and, not knowing much about the Tudors and their times, really helps with filling the gaps.
Thanks, Salvador! Checking it out now!
I know this is from yesterday, but I was struck by what a crowd-pleaser Odysseus's words at the end of his recounting his seafarer travels, "Now I have told you the truth, no matter what," must have been to live audiences. Quite a number of oral tradition repetitions, to bring those pesky / lazy listeners back to paying attention, the most obvious 'rosy-fingered dawn' and other variations.
I laughed out loud when I saw Odysseus described as the "city sacker." And the list of unpronounceable Greek names at line 110 reminded me of the list of unpronounceable names of the Israelites in the Bible -- either Genesis or Exodus. And then there's the "holy dance." I wonder what that looked like. One other note: according to Wikipedia, Phaeacia is a place made up by Homer, not a real place. Anyone have information to the contrary?
Some scholars think it might be Corfu.
interesting comments on poets and poetry: blindness is a necessary condition to be able to produce 'sweet song' = imagination & repeating episodes of 'famous actions' remind an audience of the foundation of a form of cultural cohesion that they share. history and fiction braided together.we live in the world they created.
In Ireland, 'sean nós' singers (singers of old stories) usually sing with their eyes closed. Don't we all need darkness to really visualise imaginary worlds? And find the words to describe them?
Alcinous is aware of Odysseus weeping, surely must suspect his identity? Mysterious stranger, no one knows his name...Is Odysseus protecting himself by hiding his identity? Is his host protecting him by playing along?
I thought about that too. I think Alcinous suspects it is Odysseus, and wants to avoid antagonizing him at all costs, given his reputation as a sacker of cities.
So, wow! King Alcinous is actually going to provide Odysseus with a new ship and send off 52 men ("the men selected as the best") to take him home?? I guess I thought Odysseus would be hoping to hitch a ride with one of their ships going elsewhere ... but he's being take home like this? Impressive hospitality!
Mind you, Athena has done her things again and spruced up Odysseus with "unearthly charm" to make him appear "taller and sturdier," "like an immortal god," so as to impress the Phaeacians lords and captains. Maybe it was them who had to "donate" their young men to this cause? They probably wouldn't know if they'd ever see them again! And would the king expect his ship to be returned one day?
Yeah that stood out for me too. Here, we’ll lend you a ship and 52 of our strongest seafaring men. I guess the king really liked him (there was that passing offer that he’d offer his daughter as a bride if Odysseus stayed)
This popped up in my Readwise feed today. It's from "The Dawn of Everything," by Graeber and Wengrow:
"But everywhere we encounter it slavery is also, at first, a domestic institution. Hierarchy and property may derive from notions of the sacred, but the most brutal forms of exploitation have their origins in the most intimate of social relations: as perversions of nurture, love and caring."
I am quoting it because it has to do with people's comments about slavery and caregiving and patriarchy.