I am really enjoying reading the day’s lines and then watching Emily Wilson do a dramatic reading (with props!) of what I’ve just read. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/odyssey-a-day
Book 2, line 204-205: Eurymachus talking about Penelope and what will happen “as long as she frustrates our wish for marriage.” Just a few words, but so devastating; women are chattel with no agency and nothing more. Keep fighting Penelope!
Yes, she has so little agency. The fact that her loom ruse worked for nearly four years makes you think that the blokes in charge aren't the brightest.
I know. I find this really disturbing, plus her teenage son gets to decide whether they will continue to wait for his father to return or else ship his mother to her own father’s so he can decide who she will marry. Arg!
The whole of Book 2 is showing two sides of the powerlessness within patriarchy and also what agency there is - and its tenuousness. Penelope - the female as no more than chattel and also endangered by other women, not just men. Telemachus, as child, who until he can mature enough to claim his manhood and all that grants him, is powerless, taunted, and at risk himself. Though a goddess ultimately helps him along. Yet Penelope left to cope on her own.
Mary Beard's book "Women and Power" refers to Penelope being told to be quiet by Telemachus (in Book One) as one of the earliest stories of women being silenced
The weaving and unraveling and weaving and unraveling isn't a trick (as the suitors accuse) , but a way to mourn. Because isn't mourning a disappearing, reappearing, disappearing shroud...
I like what you are getting at, but is her weaving symbolic or metaphoric? Aren't metaphors one kind of "figure of speech" and therefore have to do with language? (I suspect the meaning of "metaphor" -- at least as I understand it -- might be changing. . . .)
The entire poem gives us good evidence for both to be true. “Cunning” Penelope uses the means afforded to her as a woman of her time to protect herself and the home she’s loved for her entire adult life. She and Odysseus are well matched in wit and clever scheming! If not for her plotting here, her only son would have been murdered years earlier and the wrath of the gods would have rained upon her household. She protected herself in the only way she would be allowed to!
In Book 2 I am struck by the "feminist " quality of the Odyssey compared to the Iliad. Here the women express agency and power explicitly and directly as well as tactically. Athena looks and conducts herself like the Ancient Greek ideal man and she is virtuous and powerful. Penelope resists the suitors and may choose whichever one she pleases should she decide to do so. And she beguils the suitors for three long years weaving and undoing the tapestry until a female spy reveals the ruse to the suitors.
I adore, and can barely imagine, this spectacle of the raucous party that never ends, and righteous party-goers that have such an egregious agenda (to marry their host!) and can’t stop eating. One can only approximate the bitter inconvenience, having hosted a few parties myself that went much longer than I would have preferred.
Question - Chapter two emphasizes Telemachus’s and Penelope’s lack of protection against the suiters. Does anyone know their legal entitlement to the estate? It sure seems like they have no control. Articles I’ve read said that
Athenian women, for example, had no independent existence. She was obliged to be incorporated into the family of her husband.
When the husband died, the woman had the choice of staying in the family of her former husband or returning to her own family. In a sense, ancient Greek women always had to be part of a family. No lone riders. https://historycooperative.org/women-in-ancient-greece/
Why didn’t her father or any of Odysseus’s relatives step in. And Telemachus should have inherited. Perhaps these legal rights were later and that “might is right” principle prevailed? Or were there other reasons the suiters were not vanquished. Thoughts?
I’m not sure about the wider family members who are/aren’t on the island. Curious if others know. But my understanding is that Telemachus couldn’t inherit because Odysseus isn’t dead. He is “missing in action,” with all of the pain and anguish that will always bring. More of the postwar trauma that is under this work. Telemachus and Penelope seem so painfully desperate for news of Odysseus.
I've wondered about this ever since my first reading years ago. It's possible that Penelope's family is far away, and that her family doesn't know what has happened. Everybody is illiterate, so it's not like she could send a letter. Could she send a messenger? Her sister visits her in a dream, but that is all you see of her family.
Book 2, lines 181-182: "Many birds go flying / in sunlight, and not all are meaningful." A cranky dismissal of Halitherses (who “excelled at prophecy and knew the birds”) by Eurymachus, a clue for how to read the text (any text?), and a sad truth about growing up.
I've always thought that this first part of the Odyssey -- the young man going in search of his father in order to gain maturity and understand himself -- complements so well the story of the veteran of wars striving to return home.
This is a very interesting parallel! I wonder if there's a perhaps a different angle, of grandkids of wwii vets enlisting post-9/11. (perhaps this is akin to what Telemachus's is doing? Since he doesn't actually know his father closely, but rather the stories of his father and his turmoil? possibly an unformed thought ...)
As an aside, my dad's on the cusp of boomer and silent, and he enlisted to avoid getting drafted during vietnam. He ended up being able to serve in the US rather than shipping out.
Do gods ever get exhausted because Athena is doing a lot of work in book 2! I love the image of her, "eyes ablaze with plans" who "poured sweet sleep upon the drunken suitors."
I'm amused by how two eagles can appear, fight, scratch up a bunch of the suitors, then a dude says brazenly "many birds go flying
in sunlight, and not all are meaningful." It's got very "move along, nothing to see here" energy.
It does! This translation of the line has a wonderful euphemistic tone, compared to Butler's, for example: "birds are always flying about in the sunshine somewhere or other, but they seldom mean anything".
"...Let her father tell her to marry anyone his heart desires." At first I read it as, "...anyone HER heart desires." Oops, my bad. What was I thinking.
I kind of like it that Telemachus just bursts into tears. Men burst into tears in The Iliad too. I haven't seen a male person over the age of ten cry in a long time, in America in the 21st century.
I also like the straightforward description of people as "slaves," instead of "grave housekeepers." Let's just call it what it is: slavery.
Stefania’s comment that this work is a “postwar narrative” resonates deeply with me. In Book 2, Homer/Wilson’s use of verbs continues to pull me into that grief in a unique way. Wise and cautious Aegyptius who mourns for his son: “He spoke in tears.” I also am struck by how Athena’s words “flew like birds."
Regarding goddesses, a second goddess was called upon:
“The goddess who presides in human meetings: Justice! ”
Not sure it is supposed to be read so, but I found the meeting called by Telemachus amusing. It's a neighborhood meeting of people who are mostly not very dignified or diplomatic. Telemachus is a whiny adolescent, the suitors are arrogant and entitled (and unfortunately they reminded me of certain individuals afoot today), and the whole thing accomplishes little. Thankfully, Athena comes to the rescue. I also found it amusing that Telemachus did not want his mother to know he was gone because crying would "spoil her pretty skin." What??
Reflecting a little further, however, this book is also pretty sad. Without Odysseus, Ithaca is without a rudder. Telemachus may be only a teenager, but back then a teenager his age should have been more grown up. His mother and grandfather have failed him, giving him no training to be a leader or even manly. The grandfather has failed his daughter also. Honor and responsibility are not particularly virtues in this society.
I'm enjoying how the overall effect of this translation has in giving agency and energy to Athena's interventions. I used to view her work as scheming, but there's an enthusiastic urgency to her here.
I was curious about Wilson's two references to "bright-eyed" Athena, and was surprised when I checked two other translations to find her described as grey-eyed instead (Fitzgerald and Butler.) I'm surprised there wasn't a translator note on this, but perhaps it's a clue to how Wilson is seeing her.
Lastly, I like all the comments here on the interpretation of Penelope's weaving and unravelling, particularly in regards to the ebb and flow of grief. When I read this in Antinous's rebuke of Telemachus's tantrum, I couldn't help feel that he was describing Penelope's actions as if he thought her a kind of witch, using her loom to cast a spell over the men who wished power over her, until the spell is broken. There's a certain contempt, too, in the way he tells it.
I was a little saddened by them at first, missing the repetition of other translations ("young Dawn with her rose red fingers"). But I understand her reasoning from the notes, and it's growing on me fast. You still get the recurring theme but with variations. Really it's pretty wonderful.
I am really enjoying reading the day’s lines and then watching Emily Wilson do a dramatic reading (with props!) of what I’ve just read. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/odyssey-a-day
Oh, thank you. Will add that to my daily Homer fix.
Now part of my daily reading. Thank you!
Cool!
Oh! this is so great! thank you
Ha! I love this! I will now picture Telemachus wearing a turned around baseball cap which seems in character for Book One.
Will watch. Thank you!
Fantastic! Thanks so much for sharing that link. Yet another charming example of coping with that first pandemic lockdown.
Thanks, I needed a laugh so badly today and those photos did it. I will enjoy listening.
Mentor's rebuke has a chilling, cotemporary resonance:
. . . . . . . Now kings
should never try to judge with righteousness
or rule their people gently. Kings should always
be cruel, since the people whom he ruled
as kindly as a father, have forgotten
their King Odysseus. I do not blame
the suitors’ overconfidence, rough ways
and violence, in eating up his household;
they risk their lives, supposing that the master
will never come back home. But I do blame
you others, sitting passive, never speaking
against them, though you far outnumber them
Yes, the greedy suitors in the house has a chilling resonance right now.
I found this so chilling I had to reread to make sure I understood what I was reading:
Kings should always
be cruel, since the people whom he ruled
as kindly as a father, have forgotten
their King Odysseus.
two plus readings for me...
Book 2, line 204-205: Eurymachus talking about Penelope and what will happen “as long as she frustrates our wish for marriage.” Just a few words, but so devastating; women are chattel with no agency and nothing more. Keep fighting Penelope!
Yes, she has so little agency. The fact that her loom ruse worked for nearly four years makes you think that the blokes in charge aren't the brightest.
I know. I find this really disturbing, plus her teenage son gets to decide whether they will continue to wait for his father to return or else ship his mother to her own father’s so he can decide who she will marry. Arg!
The whole of Book 2 is showing two sides of the powerlessness within patriarchy and also what agency there is - and its tenuousness. Penelope - the female as no more than chattel and also endangered by other women, not just men. Telemachus, as child, who until he can mature enough to claim his manhood and all that grants him, is powerless, taunted, and at risk himself. Though a goddess ultimately helps him along. Yet Penelope left to cope on her own.
Mary Beard's book "Women and Power" refers to Penelope being told to be quiet by Telemachus (in Book One) as one of the earliest stories of women being silenced
The weaving and unraveling and weaving and unraveling isn't a trick (as the suitors accuse) , but a way to mourn. Because isn't mourning a disappearing, reappearing, disappearing shroud...
A metaphor for the ebb and flow of grief, especially one that is so uncertain.
I like what you are getting at, but is her weaving symbolic or metaphoric? Aren't metaphors one kind of "figure of speech" and therefore have to do with language? (I suspect the meaning of "metaphor" -- at least as I understand it -- might be changing. . . .)
The entire poem gives us good evidence for both to be true. “Cunning” Penelope uses the means afforded to her as a woman of her time to protect herself and the home she’s loved for her entire adult life. She and Odysseus are well matched in wit and clever scheming! If not for her plotting here, her only son would have been murdered years earlier and the wrath of the gods would have rained upon her household. She protected herself in the only way she would be allowed to!
Yes! Seems like a true bit of "cunning" agency within the context of her world.
In Book 2 I am struck by the "feminist " quality of the Odyssey compared to the Iliad. Here the women express agency and power explicitly and directly as well as tactically. Athena looks and conducts herself like the Ancient Greek ideal man and she is virtuous and powerful. Penelope resists the suitors and may choose whichever one she pleases should she decide to do so. And she beguils the suitors for three long years weaving and undoing the tapestry until a female spy reveals the ruse to the suitors.
made more explicit in this translation ...
I adore, and can barely imagine, this spectacle of the raucous party that never ends, and righteous party-goers that have such an egregious agenda (to marry their host!) and can’t stop eating. One can only approximate the bitter inconvenience, having hosted a few parties myself that went much longer than I would have preferred.
Question - Chapter two emphasizes Telemachus’s and Penelope’s lack of protection against the suiters. Does anyone know their legal entitlement to the estate? It sure seems like they have no control. Articles I’ve read said that
Athenian women, for example, had no independent existence. She was obliged to be incorporated into the family of her husband.
When the husband died, the woman had the choice of staying in the family of her former husband or returning to her own family. In a sense, ancient Greek women always had to be part of a family. No lone riders. https://historycooperative.org/women-in-ancient-greece/
Why didn’t her father or any of Odysseus’s relatives step in. And Telemachus should have inherited. Perhaps these legal rights were later and that “might is right” principle prevailed? Or were there other reasons the suiters were not vanquished. Thoughts?
I’m not sure about the wider family members who are/aren’t on the island. Curious if others know. But my understanding is that Telemachus couldn’t inherit because Odysseus isn’t dead. He is “missing in action,” with all of the pain and anguish that will always bring. More of the postwar trauma that is under this work. Telemachus and Penelope seem so painfully desperate for news of Odysseus.
I've wondered about this ever since my first reading years ago. It's possible that Penelope's family is far away, and that her family doesn't know what has happened. Everybody is illiterate, so it's not like she could send a letter. Could she send a messenger? Her sister visits her in a dream, but that is all you see of her family.
I also wondered if Laertes is still alive and why he wouldn't be stepping up to take the reins until his son returns or ... doesn't?
Book 2, lines 181-182: "Many birds go flying / in sunlight, and not all are meaningful." A cranky dismissal of Halitherses (who “excelled at prophecy and knew the birds”) by Eurymachus, a clue for how to read the text (any text?), and a sad truth about growing up.
Yes, I thought that. This back and forth, in the council, between the old guard and the young, brash, impatient ones. I reckon Homer was an older guy.
So helpful… thanks!
I've always thought that this first part of the Odyssey -- the young man going in search of his father in order to gain maturity and understand himself -- complements so well the story of the veteran of wars striving to return home.
Or - a different twist - the sons of WWII vets enlisting to fight in Vietnam. Like the baby boomers did.
The boomers I know got drafted.
Right. Not too many voluntary enlistments as I understand it, at least not once the war escalated.
This is a very interesting parallel! I wonder if there's a perhaps a different angle, of grandkids of wwii vets enlisting post-9/11. (perhaps this is akin to what Telemachus's is doing? Since he doesn't actually know his father closely, but rather the stories of his father and his turmoil? possibly an unformed thought ...)
As an aside, my dad's on the cusp of boomer and silent, and he enlisted to avoid getting drafted during vietnam. He ended up being able to serve in the US rather than shipping out.
There's a whole book about this, very worth reading: Odysseus in America, about Vietnam War veterans.
Thanks, Shannon. My father was a WWII vet, and I myself enlisted, though in 1974, when American combat in Vietnam had virtually ended.
As is his (the author, Jonathan Shay) earlier book, ACHILLES IN VIETNAM, which uses the Iliad as model.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/074321157X/?bestFormat=true&k=odysseus%20in%20america&ref_=nb_sb_ss_w_scx-ent-pd-bk-d_de_k0_1_14&crid=2T503MEOS4Q8P&sprefix=odysseus%20in%20am
True. Should’ve said my husband enlisted.
Perspective! Thank you
Do gods ever get exhausted because Athena is doing a lot of work in book 2! I love the image of her, "eyes ablaze with plans" who "poured sweet sleep upon the drunken suitors."
I'm amused by how two eagles can appear, fight, scratch up a bunch of the suitors, then a dude says brazenly "many birds go flying
in sunlight, and not all are meaningful." It's got very "move along, nothing to see here" energy.
It does! This translation of the line has a wonderful euphemistic tone, compared to Butler's, for example: "birds are always flying about in the sunshine somewhere or other, but they seldom mean anything".
Reminds me of the movie "Troy," in which Hector mocks the idea of "bird signs."
Sometimes a bird is just a bird. lol.
"...Let her father tell her to marry anyone his heart desires." At first I read it as, "...anyone HER heart desires." Oops, my bad. What was I thinking.
I kind of like it that Telemachus just bursts into tears. Men burst into tears in The Iliad too. I haven't seen a male person over the age of ten cry in a long time, in America in the 21st century.
I also like the straightforward description of people as "slaves," instead of "grave housekeepers." Let's just call it what it is: slavery.
Shannon….your point well taken yet the 21st century is drenched in men’s tears submerged always ready to flood..
Stefania’s comment that this work is a “postwar narrative” resonates deeply with me. In Book 2, Homer/Wilson’s use of verbs continues to pull me into that grief in a unique way. Wise and cautious Aegyptius who mourns for his son: “He spoke in tears.” I also am struck by how Athena’s words “flew like birds."
Regarding goddesses, a second goddess was called upon:
“The goddess who presides in human meetings: Justice! ”
Does anyone know how we can call on her now?
I noticed that too… Aegyptius has three surviving sons, yet always mourns the one lost in war.
If only we could call on that "second goddess" now!
I too, was moved by how Athena's words "flew like birds."
Not sure it is supposed to be read so, but I found the meeting called by Telemachus amusing. It's a neighborhood meeting of people who are mostly not very dignified or diplomatic. Telemachus is a whiny adolescent, the suitors are arrogant and entitled (and unfortunately they reminded me of certain individuals afoot today), and the whole thing accomplishes little. Thankfully, Athena comes to the rescue. I also found it amusing that Telemachus did not want his mother to know he was gone because crying would "spoil her pretty skin." What??
Reflecting a little further, however, this book is also pretty sad. Without Odysseus, Ithaca is without a rudder. Telemachus may be only a teenager, but back then a teenager his age should have been more grown up. His mother and grandfather have failed him, giving him no training to be a leader or even manly. The grandfather has failed his daughter also. Honor and responsibility are not particularly virtues in this society.
I'm enjoying how the overall effect of this translation has in giving agency and energy to Athena's interventions. I used to view her work as scheming, but there's an enthusiastic urgency to her here.
I was curious about Wilson's two references to "bright-eyed" Athena, and was surprised when I checked two other translations to find her described as grey-eyed instead (Fitzgerald and Butler.) I'm surprised there wasn't a translator note on this, but perhaps it's a clue to how Wilson is seeing her.
Lastly, I like all the comments here on the interpretation of Penelope's weaving and unravelling, particularly in regards to the ebb and flow of grief. When I read this in Antinous's rebuke of Telemachus's tantrum, I couldn't help feel that he was describing Penelope's actions as if he thought her a kind of witch, using her loom to cast a spell over the men who wished power over her, until the spell is broken. There's a certain contempt, too, in the way he tells it.
I enjoyed reading Wilson’s version of the rosy fingers of Dawn.
I was a little saddened by them at first, missing the repetition of other translations ("young Dawn with her rose red fingers"). But I understand her reasoning from the notes, and it's growing on me fast. You still get the recurring theme but with variations. Really it's pretty wonderful.