Yesterday some of us brought up the relationship between the Odyssey—it and the Iliad the seminal literary works using devices and techniques found throughout our shared artistic literary tradition—and contemporary literature. In Book 5 there are passages that struck me as directly influencing one of my all-time favorite novelists, Cormac McCarthy. McCarthy's work shows clear Homeric influences, particularly in "Blood Meridian" and "The Road."
While the influence on McCarthy is immediately evident, about any of our literature that, like Homer’s, deals with fundamental questions about violence, civilization, fate, and human nature, is consciously or subconsciously influenced by the Iliad and the Odyssey—not only in thematic content but also mechanics and technique.
McCarthy is just one example. There are many others including War and Peace, Moby Dick, and the Lord of the Rings, for example.
Book 5 of the Odyssey recalls McCarthy's meticulous yet beautiful and mesmerizing description of manual labor; cinematic descriptions of landscape, humans pitted against the elements, battles and violence; the extravagant, poetic similes; and inlaid storytelling.
These are all things we expect from literature that deals with the themes in the Iliad and the Odyssey, and they were the original works that taught us how to do this.
“With his bronze axe he cut down twenty trunks, polished them skillfully and planed them straight. Calypso brought a gimlet and he drilled through every plank and fitted them together, fixing it firm with pegs and fastenings.. .”
“Gladly Odysseus spread out his sails to catch the wind; with skill he steered the rudder. No sleep fell on his eyes; he watched the stars, the Pleiades, late-setting Boötes, and Bear, which people also call the Plow, which circles in one place, and marks Orion— the only star that has no share of Ocean. . . and on the eighteenth day, a murky mountain of the Phaeacian land appeared—it rose up like a shield beyond the misty sea.”
“As when a man who lives out on a lonely farm that has no neighbors buries a glowing torch inside black embers to save the seed of fire and keep a source—so was Odysseus concealed in leaves.”
Additional influences we see in other parts are the epic scope, the struggle to maintain humanity and civilization in a hostile world, violent subject matter, and inlaid storytelling. And yes, the Odyssey introduced us to fantasy.
Ah, are these excerpts from the second part of book 5? I read book 4 in one go and realised that there was supposed to be a break. So I haven't got this far. However, I also, to my shame, have not read The Road or Moby Dick yet, so.
I agree! I told my kids that this re-read of The Odyssey is something like a physicist looking at The Big Bang. So often, one gets a sense of reading the origins of everything.
I am going to have to re-read Blood Meridian (it's been MANY years). The connection between the details and the themes is spot on. What's great about all the works you mentioned, is that the descriptions and the poetry don't feel like extra writing to show off.
"Woodshadows floated silently by through the morning peace from the stairhead seaward where he gazed. Inshore and farther out the mirror of water whitened, spurned by lightshod hurrying feet. White breast of the dim sea. The twining stresses, two by two. A hand plucking the harpstrings merging their twining chords. Wavewhite wedded words shimmering on the dim tide." James Joyce being Homeric! (from the opening chapter of Ulysses)
I like what Stefania says about Odysseus being first introduced through absence, and in his absence he is also weeping. In today’s pages, Odysseus' clinging to his raft reminds of Ishmael in the Epilogue of Moby Dick, clinging to Queequeg's "coffin-life buoy,” floating on a “dirge-like main.” Also, the stark but specific details of this translation continue: the “luscious" forest “full of wings”; the meadow with its celery and violets; the octopus with rocks caught in its suckers.
Great insight. Similarly the lead up to meeting Ahab is similarly delayed with various Ishmael receiving so many accounts of the "great man" before meeting him.
"that Odysseus must go back home -- he has endured enough. Without a god or human as his guide, he will drift miserably for twenty days upon a makeshift raft..." Good lord, what happened to him having endured enough already?
APS Together: For those reading multiple translations, I’m wondering what you think of Odysseus’ “odyssey of pain.” This brief phrase from Ino the White Goddess feels significant. Tracks with Wilson’s emphasis on grief throughout this book. How does this read elsewhere?
Using odyssey when writing about Odysseus threw me off. Isn’t odyssey an allusion that references a person in a story that is still happening? (Not what you asked but I’m wondering.)
Interesting. The gods certainly went wild with their “grudges.” Wilson also changes the focus from Poseidon to Odysseus. Curious to know what the ancient Greek word is. I’m sure I’m thinking about this too much, but I find it fascinating.
The Greek is “ώδύσατ´ έκπάγλως” so if I had to guess the “odyssey” translation choice is because of that “Odysseus/hated” word connection discussed in the intro. It means like “hate so terribly”. Ώδύσσομαι is the verb but it’s very similar to the name Ώδυσσήος
On day 5 Shannon wrote. Hermes flying over the ocean. I wonder how much of this was really "believed" by early listeners. Did they see it as a kind of magical realism, hearing it as we read Garcia Marquez? Something charming but not very realistic? Or did they really think the gods were constantly intervening in their lives? I read a book a long time ago called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. The thesis was that in ancient times, people really did construe some thoughts in their minds as the voices of the gods, thus the "bicameral mind." They did not see these thoughts as their own.
I have been curious about just this idea. How the gods and humans are integrated in the ancient mind. What are the mechanics? Are these thought in their minds or do they think the gods are talking to them? Do they see a bird flit away and think there goes Athena? How did this work?
My guess is that modern times are no different—the way some of us think about religious stories, the Bible, saints, etc. We both believe and don’t believe, longing for explanations of things we don’t understand.
Possibly, but there reactions and conversations are so visceral. Maybe because their scientific knowledge was much less than the present? I just feel there is more to this. If there is any classic scholar on this list who can shed light on this issue that would be swell. Is this an age-old question in classics or is it just as in the modern world as Janice suggested?
Stefania’s mention of the various ways Dawn is referenced—here at the start of book v, she is presented with her lover Tithonos, another story of a goddess and a mortal man. For those who don’t remember, Dawn begged for her human boyfriend Tithonus to be granted immortality, but she didn’t mention eternal youth, so eventually T wasted away into a cicada. Then the Eos and Orion story (more famous) is brought up by calypso in her conversation with Hermes about how the gods begrudge divine/mortal relationships.
Yes, that line at the beginning of book five struck me too, as an echo - or I suppose a premonition of what is demanded of Calypso. I had the lyrics of that Suzanne Vega song (Calypso) when I was reading this passage. I have a feeling that that was my first encounter with all things Homeric.
"As I sing into the wind / I tell of nights / Where I could taste the salt on his skin ... / though he pulled away, I kept him here for years ... / Its a lonely time ahead ... / I let him go."
My favorite so far - that stunning description and evocation of Calypso's lair!
Also am loving the variations of each Dawn. It is so reflective of dawns as no 2 are ever exactly alike. At least those few I have seen (usually from the stay up to late side, 😅).
Once again we have woman with spindle weaving, once again reminded of how little power women have compared to men. Even Goddesses vs. Gods. Plus like Circe, Calypso is isolated on an island.
Oh, and how about that weeping Odysseus spending one final night in bed with Calypso?
"The sun went down and brought darkness on. They went inside the hollow cave and took the pleasure of their love, held close together." 5:225-227. Definitely no hardship on his part, reflects willingness and real intimacy on his part too!
“They went inside the hollow cave and took/the pleasure of their love, held close together.”
We know Odysseus doesn’t desire Calypso, even though she’s perfect, but he consents (is it consent?) to a last night of “goodbye sex” before he leaves. Is this to reassure she doesn’t change her mind and persecute him on the sea? Or just gratitude for her help (but really how much help is she really giving if Poseidon is just waiting to clobber him?). You really can’t trust the gods in this world.
An interesting contrast to Penelope who has held off a houseful of suitors for years. Admittedly they’re just mortals.
I had a slightly different response to the seeming "ease" with which Odysseus "took the pleasure of their love" on the eve of his departure. Prior to this moment of "embrace" we see a "tearful"/"weeping" Odysseus bemoaning the tragedy of being unable to return home, "longing to go back home, since she no longer pleased him." Ohh, "poor man!" wallowing in "tears and grief, staring in heartbreak (while "pin[ing] for" his "modest" wife) at the fruitless sea." While I am certainly sympathetic with respect to missing one's home and wanting to return, the notion that Calypso "no longer pleased him" implies that she once did, and now that this is "no longer" so, he sounds like a petulant (man)child, who is wants his way - and is entitled to it - when he tires of his pleasures.
Penelope is indeed an interesting contrast; ostensibly one expects her to have little, if any agency, and yet, she "weaves" control and wondrously holds her own, relying upon her "fine mind" to protect the sanctity of her love, rather than "sobbing in grief and pain" while "sitting by the shore."
Yes that line 'no longer pleased him'! It jumped out at me too. That last night of 'pleasure' read like Odysseus knowing that he's going in the morning so the boredom of being stuck on this island with just one woman is somewhat alleviated!
I’m not sure that she necessarily ever truly pleased him. Perhaps, being resigned to captivity , a sort of ‘Stockholm syndrome’ developed which he now rejects and regrets. In that situation, a last embrace is not unthinkable.
the earlier remark that "she no longer pleased him" implies she once did, doesn't it? and that "He had no choice. He spent his nights with her inside her hollow cave, not wanting her though she still wanted him." contradicts the "their" love in line 225-227 that is plural. I guess the phrase about a man never meeting an orgasm he didn't like goes way way back! Hi Wayne!!!!
I think taking pleasure in the last night goes right along side by side with no longer pleasing him -- he can enjoy the last night because he knows it's the last -- I take these as examples of the contradictions that weave human emotion and desire and not as limited to men, unfaithful or otherwise
I agree, the contradictions that "weave human emotion and desire" are definitely not limited to men. I think it is interesting, however, how such contradictions are narrated within literature - ancient and modern.
What's up with the oblique way the text approaches sexuality in general? Rapturous descriptions of eating and drinking highlights the marginal treatment of sex. Weren't the ancient Greeks radically more body positive than we are?
I'm not seeing the sexuality implied in this chapter as oblique. I mean her bower is dripping with erotic language: Lucious, flourished, scented, ripe, verdant, bloomed, sights to please even a god, gleaming, glittering, ambrosia, nectar, etc. She has taken him (her boytoy) to her bed! You go girl, Calypso!
Hmmm... I don't know if it's a valid contrast, because Penelope would probably have to make a big commitment and get married (and agree to everything that would mean politically, etc) to one of her suitors in order to have sex, whereas Odysseus had little to lose and was maybe feeling grateful to Calypso, happy to just be alive perhaps? We don't really know Penelope has also been celibate -- just that she misses her hubby and doesn't want to marry anyone else. (Is this correct?)
I thought it was interesting as a complement to Helen’s story yesterday: she said “I wanted to go home by then” and Odysseus’s “she no longer pleased me”—two people trapped where they don’t want to be any more.
Just finished Han Kang's : We do not part, which deals among other things with the Gwangjui massacres in Korea in 1948. Reading The Odysee is giving me such a broader horizon of meaning and interpretation: the search for a father, the connection of the living with the dead, historical trauma...
Interesting connection. I am currently reading Han Kang's "Human Acts," which also focuses on the Gwangjui massacres (I am waiting for "We Do Not Part" from the library); your insights offer an additional lens to consider while reading.
I was unexpectedly beguiled by The Vegetarian and also read Human Acts, which is very different--and devastating. In December, I read her novel Greek Lessons, which seems apt here, though there is nothing about Homer. It's about a woman--a poet--who, due to grief, finds herself losing language and starts studying Greek in order to get it back. Her Greek instructor, meanwhile, is going blind. It's an interesting challenge to create the internal life of a character who is struggling with language.
Come to think of it, the Greek instructor going blind makes me think of Homer himself, the blind poet. I don't know if Kang intends that. Socrates and Plato are the Greek luminaries she references in the book. Socrates appears as a tragic figure who, after being pronounced "the wisest man in Athens" by the oracle at Delphi, spends the rest of his life "learning without a teacher."
That line that Athena says to Zeus - 'Let every King be cruel, his acts unjust!' is a repetition from one of the previous books ( I can't recall where ). Emphasising that such ill fortune can be attracted to such a kind and beneficent ruler.
I'm a little confused though, because I don't know the story well. Did not Menalaus also spend a long time coming back (was it eight years in total)? Odysseus takes ten years I think, so he's not that singular, unless you look at the fact that he managed to lose all his ships and get all his crew killed?
Yes, book II around line 230, during the council meeting Mentor: Now kings should never try to judge with righteousness or rule their people gently. Kings should always be cruel, since the people whom he ruled as kindly as a father, have forgotten their King Odysseus.
The first dramatic monologue in poetry, as opposed to written for the stage, is cited as Alfred, Lord Tennyson's poem Ulysses in 1842. That's a tough sell in my mind, and relies on hair-splitting differences in the definitions of dramatic speech. I'm sure the argument could be made that Odysseus's lamentations to the unseen gods and to himself upon the sea are the true origin in poetry.
Line 5.228: It jumps out at me when Dawn is described as anything other than rosy-fingered. I wonder why Wilson chose "vernal." Is she saying it is literally springtime, or in a metaphorical sense, as in "rebirth"? Fitzgerald, Butler, and Fagles all stick with the rosy reference.
"The meadow softly bloomed with celery / and violets" (72-73)--I read and reread the description of Calypso's cavern out of sheer delight, and then pulled up the Brueghel painting for good measure.
Yesterday some of us brought up the relationship between the Odyssey—it and the Iliad the seminal literary works using devices and techniques found throughout our shared artistic literary tradition—and contemporary literature. In Book 5 there are passages that struck me as directly influencing one of my all-time favorite novelists, Cormac McCarthy. McCarthy's work shows clear Homeric influences, particularly in "Blood Meridian" and "The Road."
While the influence on McCarthy is immediately evident, about any of our literature that, like Homer’s, deals with fundamental questions about violence, civilization, fate, and human nature, is consciously or subconsciously influenced by the Iliad and the Odyssey—not only in thematic content but also mechanics and technique.
McCarthy is just one example. There are many others including War and Peace, Moby Dick, and the Lord of the Rings, for example.
Book 5 of the Odyssey recalls McCarthy's meticulous yet beautiful and mesmerizing description of manual labor; cinematic descriptions of landscape, humans pitted against the elements, battles and violence; the extravagant, poetic similes; and inlaid storytelling.
These are all things we expect from literature that deals with the themes in the Iliad and the Odyssey, and they were the original works that taught us how to do this.
“With his bronze axe he cut down twenty trunks, polished them skillfully and planed them straight. Calypso brought a gimlet and he drilled through every plank and fitted them together, fixing it firm with pegs and fastenings.. .”
“Gladly Odysseus spread out his sails to catch the wind; with skill he steered the rudder. No sleep fell on his eyes; he watched the stars, the Pleiades, late-setting Boötes, and Bear, which people also call the Plow, which circles in one place, and marks Orion— the only star that has no share of Ocean. . . and on the eighteenth day, a murky mountain of the Phaeacian land appeared—it rose up like a shield beyond the misty sea.”
“As when a man who lives out on a lonely farm that has no neighbors buries a glowing torch inside black embers to save the seed of fire and keep a source—so was Odysseus concealed in leaves.”
Additional influences we see in other parts are the epic scope, the struggle to maintain humanity and civilization in a hostile world, violent subject matter, and inlaid storytelling. And yes, the Odyssey introduced us to fantasy.
I thought of Moby Dick as well....
I'd love to read Moby Dick with APS Together!
We did that last year!
Oh, damn! I missed it. I was afraid of that.
We read Moby Dick with the brilliant Yiyun Li!
I always think of Moby Dick!
Ah, are these excerpts from the second part of book 5? I read book 4 in one go and realised that there was supposed to be a break. So I haven't got this far. However, I also, to my shame, have not read The Road or Moby Dick yet, so.
Read Moby Dick last year with my Reading Aloud group. Took a long time but great fun!
I too only read the assigned sections. This does see. To be a discussion better suited to tomorrow.
Ahhh, yes, "cinematic descriptions of landscape ..." invite me into this world, body and soul!
I agree! I told my kids that this re-read of The Odyssey is something like a physicist looking at The Big Bang. So often, one gets a sense of reading the origins of everything.
If a goddess brought me a gimlet, I would drink it.
I am going to have to re-read Blood Meridian (it's been MANY years). The connection between the details and the themes is spot on. What's great about all the works you mentioned, is that the descriptions and the poetry don't feel like extra writing to show off.
"Woodshadows floated silently by through the morning peace from the stairhead seaward where he gazed. Inshore and farther out the mirror of water whitened, spurned by lightshod hurrying feet. White breast of the dim sea. The twining stresses, two by two. A hand plucking the harpstrings merging their twining chords. Wavewhite wedded words shimmering on the dim tide." James Joyce being Homeric! (from the opening chapter of Ulysses)
I like what Stefania says about Odysseus being first introduced through absence, and in his absence he is also weeping. In today’s pages, Odysseus' clinging to his raft reminds of Ishmael in the Epilogue of Moby Dick, clinging to Queequeg's "coffin-life buoy,” floating on a “dirge-like main.” Also, the stark but specific details of this translation continue: the “luscious" forest “full of wings”; the meadow with its celery and violets; the octopus with rocks caught in its suckers.
Great insight. Similarly the lead up to meeting Ahab is similarly delayed with various Ishmael receiving so many accounts of the "great man" before meeting him.
"that Odysseus must go back home -- he has endured enough. Without a god or human as his guide, he will drift miserably for twenty days upon a makeshift raft..." Good lord, what happened to him having endured enough already?
I know, right?
APS Together: For those reading multiple translations, I’m wondering what you think of Odysseus’ “odyssey of pain.” This brief phrase from Ino the White Goddess feels significant. Tracks with Wilson’s emphasis on grief throughout this book. How does this read elsewhere?
Using odyssey when writing about Odysseus threw me off. Isn’t odyssey an allusion that references a person in a story that is still happening? (Not what you asked but I’m wondering.)
Yes. Kind of meta-fiction in a non-meta way.
I didn’t care for it. Seemed like the translator was winking at the reader. Fitzgerald has it as Poseidon holding a “fearful grudge.”
Interesting. The gods certainly went wild with their “grudges.” Wilson also changes the focus from Poseidon to Odysseus. Curious to know what the ancient Greek word is. I’m sure I’m thinking about this too much, but I find it fascinating.
The Greek is “ώδύσατ´ έκπάγλως” so if I had to guess the “odyssey” translation choice is because of that “Odysseus/hated” word connection discussed in the intro. It means like “hate so terribly”. Ώδύσσομαι is the verb but it’s very similar to the name Ώδυσσήος
If you know enough of the Greek alphabet to pick out words, Perseus is very fun: each word is clickable and takes you to a glossary entry, and you can load English next to the Greek to analyze line by line 🤓 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D313
On day 5 Shannon wrote. Hermes flying over the ocean. I wonder how much of this was really "believed" by early listeners. Did they see it as a kind of magical realism, hearing it as we read Garcia Marquez? Something charming but not very realistic? Or did they really think the gods were constantly intervening in their lives? I read a book a long time ago called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. The thesis was that in ancient times, people really did construe some thoughts in their minds as the voices of the gods, thus the "bicameral mind." They did not see these thoughts as their own.
I have been curious about just this idea. How the gods and humans are integrated in the ancient mind. What are the mechanics? Are these thought in their minds or do they think the gods are talking to them? Do they see a bird flit away and think there goes Athena? How did this work?
I also wondered about this.
My guess is that modern times are no different—the way some of us think about religious stories, the Bible, saints, etc. We both believe and don’t believe, longing for explanations of things we don’t understand.
Possibly, but there reactions and conversations are so visceral. Maybe because their scientific knowledge was much less than the present? I just feel there is more to this. If there is any classic scholar on this list who can shed light on this issue that would be swell. Is this an age-old question in classics or is it just as in the modern world as Janice suggested?
Their not there. Autocorrect at work
I always think it is very useful to have something to blame life’s changes and difficulties on. Be it a god or goddess. Very useful belief system
This is such a great question. Joan of Arc-ish voices, maybe?
Stefania’s mention of the various ways Dawn is referenced—here at the start of book v, she is presented with her lover Tithonos, another story of a goddess and a mortal man. For those who don’t remember, Dawn begged for her human boyfriend Tithonus to be granted immortality, but she didn’t mention eternal youth, so eventually T wasted away into a cicada. Then the Eos and Orion story (more famous) is brought up by calypso in her conversation with Hermes about how the gods begrudge divine/mortal relationships.
Yes, that line at the beginning of book five struck me too, as an echo - or I suppose a premonition of what is demanded of Calypso. I had the lyrics of that Suzanne Vega song (Calypso) when I was reading this passage. I have a feeling that that was my first encounter with all things Homeric.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ExnrHJRUA
Haunting.
"As I sing into the wind / I tell of nights / Where I could taste the salt on his skin ... / though he pulled away, I kept him here for years ... / Its a lonely time ahead ... / I let him go."
My favorite so far - that stunning description and evocation of Calypso's lair!
Also am loving the variations of each Dawn. It is so reflective of dawns as no 2 are ever exactly alike. At least those few I have seen (usually from the stay up to late side, 😅).
Once again we have woman with spindle weaving, once again reminded of how little power women have compared to men. Even Goddesses vs. Gods. Plus like Circe, Calypso is isolated on an island.
Oh, and how about that weeping Odysseus spending one final night in bed with Calypso?
"The sun went down and brought darkness on. They went inside the hollow cave and took the pleasure of their love, held close together." 5:225-227. Definitely no hardship on his part, reflects willingness and real intimacy on his part too!
Thank you so much, Rita, for pointing us to Suzanne Vega's song CALYPSO - what a beautiful piece ...
'My name is Calypso
And I have lived alone
I live on an island
And I waken to the dawn
A long time ago
I watched him struggle with the sea
I knew that he was drowning
And I brought him into me
Now today
Come morning light
He sails away
After one last night
I let him go.
My name is Calypso
My garden overflows
Thick and wild and hidden
Is the sweetness there that grows
My hair it blows long
As I sing into the wind
I tell of nights
Where I could taste the salt on his skin
Salt of the waves
And of tears
and though he pulled away
I kept him here for years
Now I let him go
My name is Calypso
I have let him go
In the dawn he sails away
To be gone forever more
And the waves will take him in again
But he'll know their ways now
I will stand upon the shore
With a clean heart
And my song in the wind
The sand will sting my feet
And the sky will burn
It's a lonely time ahead
I do not ask him to return
I let him go
I let him go'
Thanks for reminding me of this song. Note I understand it better.
I appreciate the summaries of these stories; thank you for sharing.
“They went inside the hollow cave and took/the pleasure of their love, held close together.”
We know Odysseus doesn’t desire Calypso, even though she’s perfect, but he consents (is it consent?) to a last night of “goodbye sex” before he leaves. Is this to reassure she doesn’t change her mind and persecute him on the sea? Or just gratitude for her help (but really how much help is she really giving if Poseidon is just waiting to clobber him?). You really can’t trust the gods in this world.
An interesting contrast to Penelope who has held off a houseful of suitors for years. Admittedly they’re just mortals.
I had a slightly different response to the seeming "ease" with which Odysseus "took the pleasure of their love" on the eve of his departure. Prior to this moment of "embrace" we see a "tearful"/"weeping" Odysseus bemoaning the tragedy of being unable to return home, "longing to go back home, since she no longer pleased him." Ohh, "poor man!" wallowing in "tears and grief, staring in heartbreak (while "pin[ing] for" his "modest" wife) at the fruitless sea." While I am certainly sympathetic with respect to missing one's home and wanting to return, the notion that Calypso "no longer pleased him" implies that she once did, and now that this is "no longer" so, he sounds like a petulant (man)child, who is wants his way - and is entitled to it - when he tires of his pleasures.
Penelope is indeed an interesting contrast; ostensibly one expects her to have little, if any agency, and yet, she "weaves" control and wondrously holds her own, relying upon her "fine mind" to protect the sanctity of her love, rather than "sobbing in grief and pain" while "sitting by the shore."
Yes that line 'no longer pleased him'! It jumped out at me too. That last night of 'pleasure' read like Odysseus knowing that he's going in the morning so the boredom of being stuck on this island with just one woman is somewhat alleviated!
I’m not sure that she necessarily ever truly pleased him. Perhaps, being resigned to captivity , a sort of ‘Stockholm syndrome’ developed which he now rejects and regrets. In that situation, a last embrace is not unthinkable.
the earlier remark that "she no longer pleased him" implies she once did, doesn't it? and that "He had no choice. He spent his nights with her inside her hollow cave, not wanting her though she still wanted him." contradicts the "their" love in line 225-227 that is plural. I guess the phrase about a man never meeting an orgasm he didn't like goes way way back! Hi Wayne!!!!
I think taking pleasure in the last night goes right along side by side with no longer pleasing him -- he can enjoy the last night because he knows it's the last -- I take these as examples of the contradictions that weave human emotion and desire and not as limited to men, unfaithful or otherwise
I agree, the contradictions that "weave human emotion and desire" are definitely not limited to men. I think it is interesting, however, how such contradictions are narrated within literature - ancient and modern.
What's up with the oblique way the text approaches sexuality in general? Rapturous descriptions of eating and drinking highlights the marginal treatment of sex. Weren't the ancient Greeks radically more body positive than we are?
I'm not seeing the sexuality implied in this chapter as oblique. I mean her bower is dripping with erotic language: Lucious, flourished, scented, ripe, verdant, bloomed, sights to please even a god, gleaming, glittering, ambrosia, nectar, etc. She has taken him (her boytoy) to her bed! You go girl, Calypso!
Hmmm... I don't know if it's a valid contrast, because Penelope would probably have to make a big commitment and get married (and agree to everything that would mean politically, etc) to one of her suitors in order to have sex, whereas Odysseus had little to lose and was maybe feeling grateful to Calypso, happy to just be alive perhaps? We don't really know Penelope has also been celibate -- just that she misses her hubby and doesn't want to marry anyone else. (Is this correct?)
I thought it was interesting as a complement to Helen’s story yesterday: she said “I wanted to go home by then” and Odysseus’s “she no longer pleased me”—two people trapped where they don’t want to be any more.
Just finished Han Kang's : We do not part, which deals among other things with the Gwangjui massacres in Korea in 1948. Reading The Odysee is giving me such a broader horizon of meaning and interpretation: the search for a father, the connection of the living with the dead, historical trauma...
Interesting connection. I am currently reading Han Kang's "Human Acts," which also focuses on the Gwangjui massacres (I am waiting for "We Do Not Part" from the library); your insights offer an additional lens to consider while reading.
I’ve only read The Vegetarian. I need to read more of her work.
I was unexpectedly beguiled by The Vegetarian and also read Human Acts, which is very different--and devastating. In December, I read her novel Greek Lessons, which seems apt here, though there is nothing about Homer. It's about a woman--a poet--who, due to grief, finds herself losing language and starts studying Greek in order to get it back. Her Greek instructor, meanwhile, is going blind. It's an interesting challenge to create the internal life of a character who is struggling with language.
Come to think of it, the Greek instructor going blind makes me think of Homer himself, the blind poet. I don't know if Kang intends that. Socrates and Plato are the Greek luminaries she references in the book. Socrates appears as a tragic figure who, after being pronounced "the wisest man in Athens" by the oracle at Delphi, spends the rest of his life "learning without a teacher."
Thanks, Maureen.
That line that Athena says to Zeus - 'Let every King be cruel, his acts unjust!' is a repetition from one of the previous books ( I can't recall where ). Emphasising that such ill fortune can be attracted to such a kind and beneficent ruler.
I'm a little confused though, because I don't know the story well. Did not Menalaus also spend a long time coming back (was it eight years in total)? Odysseus takes ten years I think, so he's not that singular, unless you look at the fact that he managed to lose all his ships and get all his crew killed?
Yes, book II around line 230, during the council meeting Mentor: Now kings should never try to judge with righteousness or rule their people gently. Kings should always be cruel, since the people whom he ruled as kindly as a father, have forgotten their King Odysseus.
The repetition could come from the poem’s origin as oral tradition.
"I am taller too." Am I the only one to laugh out loud at this line from Calypso? Rather wounding in the most frivolous manner (to a short reader...)
I did, too. There are so many lovely examples, both petty and heartfelt, of Calypso's hurt here.
The first dramatic monologue in poetry, as opposed to written for the stage, is cited as Alfred, Lord Tennyson's poem Ulysses in 1842. That's a tough sell in my mind, and relies on hair-splitting differences in the definitions of dramatic speech. I'm sure the argument could be made that Odysseus's lamentations to the unseen gods and to himself upon the sea are the true origin in poetry.
Line 5.228: It jumps out at me when Dawn is described as anything other than rosy-fingered. I wonder why Wilson chose "vernal." Is she saying it is literally springtime, or in a metaphorical sense, as in "rebirth"? Fitzgerald, Butler, and Fagles all stick with the rosy reference.
I do like Calypso’s order of important provisions “I will provide water, red wine and food, to stop you starving”.
"The meadow softly bloomed with celery / and violets" (72-73)--I read and reread the description of Calypso's cavern out of sheer delight, and then pulled up the Brueghel painting for good measure.
And one more night of my better body!
Aware in these lines of Wilson's choice of words to make this deceptively simple language resonant, assonant, musical:
"wetting its whirring wings"...